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[Music]

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i'm ryan spreck and this is somewhere in

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[Music]

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he was

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genuinely concerned

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um

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by what he saw you know he with what he

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saw uh he was he was worried he sounded

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confused

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then as he described

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what the aircraft was doing

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you know i became a little bit concerned

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too i had

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streamed out as to his safety

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flying a single-engine airplane over

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water lost communication in such strange

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circumstances

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i put an alert phase on the aeroplane

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and once that had elapsed we then went

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to the distress phase stage

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and that was the commencement of the

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search there's been no

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recovery of any wreckage

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of course he he has gone

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so

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we're left with

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an open case

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um

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which sounds very much like uh he did

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encounter something very mysterious

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and there's no other conclusion that

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i can come to

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other than that

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the voice you just heard was that of

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steve roby the flight tower service

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operator out of melbourne flight air

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service on october 21 1978 frederick

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valentich was piloting his cessna

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airplane over bass strait heading south

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eastwardly for king island this is when

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he radioed steve in a controlled panic

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stating that something anomalous was not

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only following his aircraft but was now

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flying directly above it valentich

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described the object as rather large

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cigar-shaped metallic with a green light

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pulsating from it it passed over his

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plane and then vanished out of sight

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moments later it returned and was once

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again dangerously close to valentij's

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aircraft

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the last words of his transmission were

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as follows quote it is hovering and it's

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not an aircraft

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this is when the transmission went dead

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and frederick valentich and his plane

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were never seen again

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this strange case of a possible ufo and

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disappearance of a pilot has gone down

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in the annals of ufology both

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controversial and deeply mysterious

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personally it has fascinated me for

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decades and when i learned that today's

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guest actually spoke with the girlfriend

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of lintage i knew i had to hear from him

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but we'll have more on today's guest in

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just a moment so i do have a news story

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for you guys this week and

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i want to get your thoughts on this

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because i honestly don't know what to

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make of this but i've been following it

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for a couple weeks now this case comes

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out of rio bronco in brazil on march

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27th when news outlets started to report

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that a young man bruno borges had been

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reported missing by his parents uh to

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preface this he'd apparently always had

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a fascination with both the occult and

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aliens so apparently vorgas's parents

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came home from vacation and when they

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tried to enter the young man's bedroom

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it was locked they were finally able to

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pry it open and what they saw was

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absolutely jaw-dropping now they did

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record what they walked into and it can

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be viewed online now so i'll post a link

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to the video of this it's deeply

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fascinating to say the least so

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apparently borges had covered the walls

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of his bedroom with coded texts and

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extremely detailed diagrams also set out

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on a table were these series of

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self-published books written in code and

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numbered the strangest thing however was

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in the center of the bedroom a massive

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statue had been erected of giodano bruno

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a 16th century philosopher and theorist

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who was eventually burned at the stake

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for his proclamations of outer space and

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exoplanets which could possibly harbor

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alien life an artist rendering also was

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found hanging on a wall of the bedroom

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which was assumed to be that of borges

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dressed as the philosopher with an alien

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creature putting his hand on morgus's

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shoulder while this is all deeply

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mysterious it left so many questions the

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first being why his siblings hadn't

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noticed he was doing all of his work in

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the bedroom and not letting them in

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so his sister explained that he'd locked

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himself in the room for 24 straight days

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saying that he was working on a quote

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project and that he was not to be

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disturbed so while they knocked on the

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door to check on him sporadically he

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always said he was fine and to leave him

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alone when his parents arrived home from

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vacation and learned of all this they

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broke into the room and made this

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discovery as of right now as i'm

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recording this april 21st borgis is

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still reported missing many believe that

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once the books heed lied out on the

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table once they're decoded it will lead

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to his reappearance but local

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authorities are working with the parents

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and with interpol to try to find him but

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they are also working with decoders to

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try to unravel the mysterious and

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cryptic messages he left behind social

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networks have been going crazy on this

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case everything from debating its

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authenticity

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to trying to decode the strange symbols

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and diagrams he left on the walls of the

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bedroom people are also theorizing as to

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why borges did this in the first place

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some suggesting he may believe he is

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channeling the work of giordano bruno

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and continuing his work others think

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that he may have been taken by an alien

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race to finish his work while the people

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back here on earth decipher his books

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it's all very speculative and extremely

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strange so one of my listeners

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current recently brought to my attention

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a couple developments in this case

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apparently a childhood friend of borges

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won thales vasconcelos told brazilian

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news outlets that he actually helped

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borgis encrypt the text in the books and

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that he was tasked with transcribing the

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books from portuguese into this secret

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code the text supposedly ponders the

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meaning of life and how borges had been

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given a quote mission to write the books

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but the friend remains mystified to just

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exactly what this mission is or who is

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giving it to borges investigators have

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managed to track down the artist who

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created the statue in the room his name

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is jorge rifasplat and his beliefs are

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that borges is in fact a reincarnation

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of giordano bruno so this case just

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seems to become crazier and crazier as

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small bits of the puzzle are being put

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into place but the real question is if

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any of this is genuine my hesitancy with

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this from the start is that not many

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mainstream news outlets are covering

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this case uh not that that proves it to

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be disingenuous because of this but with

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the young men missing and this terribly

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strange thing going on let's be honest

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entertaining mysteries you'd think the

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news outlets would be gobbling this up

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so many believe that the occult like

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aspects of this all is somehow connected

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to a shadowy society the illuminati and

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that they're attempting to keep it all

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under wraps until borges makes his

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return to the world others believe it's

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all some sort of performance piece

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seeing how far the story can spread now

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if that is the case

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then i fell for it hook line and sinker

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because this story to me it just gets

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creepier and creepier and i want to keep

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following it so

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i guess we'll just have to wait and see

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if bruno borges ever returns or what the

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exact messages in the series of books

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he's written truly mean but i'm

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interested in hearing your thoughts on

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this entire situation is it a genuine

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head scratcher is this young man some

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sort of astro projecting reincarnated

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philosopher meeting with aliens or is

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this all complete send your

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thoughts to spreck at somewhere in the

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skies.com or join our active facebook

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page somewhere in the skies podcast you

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can also tweet to the show the handle is

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at somewhere skies and if you're

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listening on youtube let us know what

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you think in the comments below setting

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this story on the skeptical debate shelf

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for now let's get to today's guest micah

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hanks is an author researcher podcaster

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lecturer and radio personality whose

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work addresses a variety of areas

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including history politics scientific

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theories and unexplained phenomena he is

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the author of several books including

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the ghost rockets magic mysticism and

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the molecule and the ufo

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singularity today i speak with micah

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about some of the most intriguing ufo

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cases to date including the one you

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heard about at the top of the intro we

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also speak about the work of perhaps one

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of the lesser known but most influential

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individuals to apply science to the

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study of ufos we even touch on micah's

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approach

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completely reshaping and reinterpreting

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the classification system of ufo reports

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so without further ado let's get to the

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interview with micah hanks

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oh man what a great way to start it guys

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i'm here with micah hanks my good buddy

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uh researcher and

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micah

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a lot of people might not know this but

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you

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book somewhere in the sky so i thought

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it was very appropriate to have you on

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is one of my first guests on this

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endeavor that i'm embarking on so

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brother thank you so much for coming on

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today

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oh well it's my pleasure of course and

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uh you know it was

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also a pleasure to be able to write that

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uh that forward you know for your first

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book i've done a lot of forwards for

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different people

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but uh you know you've always been a

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special guy since the very first time

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you reached out and uh you know we

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actually had that opportunity although i

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regret terribly missing your lecture

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this year at the ufo congress i wasn't

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able to get out there as i had planned

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to

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grayling team out there and it just

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didn't come together but

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uh that said you and i had gotten to

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hang out at a previous congress uh years

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back and then subsequently i during a

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travel to new york was able to meet up

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with you and peter robbins you know and

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i i talk about in that forward of course

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for those who haven't read it and you

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should but don't just read the forward

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read the entire book because ryan wrote

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the rest

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yeah i talked about you know traipsing

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around new york and having hot chocolate

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with you and uh peter robbins although

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i hope you don't mind me bringing this

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up but there is a uh a bone i have to

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pick with myself here because

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you know i mentioned that and i had

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referred to pete seeing uh jfk at one

277
00:11:34,790 --> 00:11:32,640
point

278
00:11:36,710 --> 00:11:34,800
uh in his early life and i think you

279
00:11:38,630 --> 00:11:36,720
know it may have been misconstrued

280
00:11:40,870 --> 00:11:38,640
as though peter had met

281
00:11:42,550 --> 00:11:40,880
uh john f kennedy when in fact i mean he

282
00:11:45,110 --> 00:11:42,560
described very uh

283
00:11:47,670 --> 00:11:45,120
you know vividly for you and i that day

284
00:11:50,069 --> 00:11:47,680
standing there and meeting eye to eye

285
00:11:51,509 --> 00:11:50,079
with him but he didn't meet jfk so i

286
00:11:53,190 --> 00:11:51,519
just wanted to kind of clarify that

287
00:11:56,230 --> 00:11:53,200
because you know i've had a few people

288
00:11:57,750 --> 00:11:56,240
ask about that peter robbins met jfk

289
00:12:00,550 --> 00:11:57,760
he is someone who

290
00:12:02,310 --> 00:12:00,560
has had a very sincere appreciation for

291
00:12:03,990 --> 00:12:02,320
jfk and has collected a lot of

292
00:12:05,509 --> 00:12:04,000
memorabilia about him and and so that

293
00:12:07,030 --> 00:12:05,519
was a very you know

294
00:12:08,550 --> 00:12:07,040
poignant experience for him because that

295
00:12:09,670 --> 00:12:08,560
occurred of course you know a short time

296
00:12:11,269 --> 00:12:09,680
before

297
00:12:13,030 --> 00:12:11,279
the assassination probably within a

298
00:12:14,470 --> 00:12:13,040
matter of months uh i think he was

299
00:12:16,389 --> 00:12:14,480
campaigning at the time but yeah peter

300
00:12:17,750 --> 00:12:16,399
described for you and i standing there

301
00:12:20,389 --> 00:12:17,760
as a youth and

302
00:12:21,509 --> 00:12:20,399
he said that jfk would work a crowd with

303
00:12:22,470 --> 00:12:21,519
his eyes

304
00:12:24,470 --> 00:12:22,480
and it was something that as a

305
00:12:26,629 --> 00:12:24,480
politician who was extremely good at him

306
00:12:28,710 --> 00:12:26,639
that he locked eyes with jfk so it

307
00:12:30,310 --> 00:12:28,720
wasn't maybe exactly a meeting but i

308
00:12:32,550 --> 00:12:30,320
think that my wording may have

309
00:12:34,629 --> 00:12:32,560
misconstrued it as that so just for

310
00:12:36,629 --> 00:12:34,639
clarification and of course

311
00:12:38,389 --> 00:12:36,639
uh with due reference to our good pal

312
00:12:41,110 --> 00:12:38,399
peter great guy

313
00:12:43,350 --> 00:12:41,120
oh thanks man well you know what i mean

314
00:12:45,990 --> 00:12:43,360
um

315
00:12:47,750 --> 00:12:46,000
myself included like that's that's

316
00:12:50,790 --> 00:12:47,760
things that can be often overlooked

317
00:12:53,590 --> 00:12:50,800
pretty easily and uh you know maybe we

318
00:12:56,230 --> 00:12:53,600
misheard one another or we were taking a

319
00:12:59,110 --> 00:12:56,240
sip of cocoa at that time but it's funny

320
00:13:01,509 --> 00:12:59,120
you know uh peter even told me one time

321
00:13:03,430 --> 00:13:01,519
a quote by samuel clemens the difference

322
00:13:05,509 --> 00:13:03,440
between the right word and the almost

323
00:13:07,990 --> 00:13:05,519
right word is the difference between the

324
00:13:10,230 --> 00:13:08,000
lightning and the lightning bug so you

325
00:13:12,790 --> 00:13:10,240
gotta love that that's poetry right

326
00:13:14,550 --> 00:13:12,800
there well everything everything peter

327
00:13:16,389 --> 00:13:14,560
robbins says his poetry he is one of the

328
00:13:18,310 --> 00:13:16,399
most thorough individuals

329
00:13:21,110 --> 00:13:18,320
that i've ever met or known and we were

330
00:13:22,949 --> 00:13:21,120
in minneapolis together last spring

331
00:13:24,870 --> 00:13:22,959
and as we were standing out there and

332
00:13:26,470 --> 00:13:24,880
although it was spring it was frigid

333
00:13:27,670 --> 00:13:26,480
cold i remember it was so cold we were

334
00:13:30,790 --> 00:13:27,680
standing out there and he was having a

335
00:13:31,910 --> 00:13:30,800
cigarette and i if i seemed antsy uh it

336
00:13:33,350 --> 00:13:31,920
must have been

337
00:13:35,750 --> 00:13:33,360
having nothing to do with what he was

338
00:13:37,590 --> 00:13:35,760
talking about but just the the chilly

339
00:13:39,750 --> 00:13:37,600
wind and pete of course you know being a

340
00:13:41,430 --> 00:13:39,760
new yorker yourself you're the same

341
00:13:42,790 --> 00:13:41,440
you're probably more used to that cold

342
00:13:44,629 --> 00:13:42,800
wind and he was standing there just

343
00:13:46,389 --> 00:13:44,639
completely unmoved unaffected and

344
00:13:47,990 --> 00:13:46,399
telling this elaborate story and here i

345
00:13:49,430 --> 00:13:48,000
am i don't handle heat well but i live

346
00:13:51,829 --> 00:13:49,440
in the south where it's so hot i'm

347
00:13:54,150 --> 00:13:51,839
freezing i mean i was just frozen yeah

348
00:13:55,509 --> 00:13:54,160
so i you know i've got so many good pete

349
00:13:56,870 --> 00:13:55,519
stories and i know you do too so he's

350
00:13:58,150 --> 00:13:56,880
just a wonderful guy and i you know and

351
00:13:59,189 --> 00:13:58,160
that's why i wanted to bring that up

352
00:14:00,790 --> 00:13:59,199
just because

353
00:14:03,189 --> 00:14:00,800
again i think uh

354
00:14:04,550 --> 00:14:03,199
me personally uh and i know it's the

355
00:14:07,350 --> 00:14:04,560
same for you

356
00:14:08,870 --> 00:14:07,360
um i kind of looked to him as one of the

357
00:14:11,509 --> 00:14:08,880
most well-rounded

358
00:14:13,750 --> 00:14:11,519
and knowledgeable scholars on the ufo

359
00:14:15,430 --> 00:14:13,760
phenomena having spent a lot of time

360
00:14:17,990 --> 00:14:15,440
going through newspaper archives and

361
00:14:20,069 --> 00:14:18,000
having again really tried to understand

362
00:14:21,430 --> 00:14:20,079
the meaning of words

363
00:14:23,750 --> 00:14:21,440
and um

364
00:14:26,629 --> 00:14:23,760
and the way that words

365
00:14:29,269 --> 00:14:26,639
convey or what words convey about the

366
00:14:30,870 --> 00:14:29,279
ufo subject you know he he has talked

367
00:14:32,230 --> 00:14:30,880
about tracing the giggle factor you've

368
00:14:34,310 --> 00:14:32,240
heard him talk about that right

369
00:14:36,069 --> 00:14:34,320
absolutely i mean i've even accompanied

370
00:14:38,310 --> 00:14:36,079
him a few times at the new york public

371
00:14:40,790 --> 00:14:38,320
library where we've gone through the uh

372
00:14:43,910 --> 00:14:40,800
the microfiche and the newspaper

373
00:14:47,670 --> 00:14:43,920
articles and peter is the kind of guy uh

374
00:14:49,590 --> 00:14:47,680
where a library is the the sanctuary

375
00:14:51,350 --> 00:14:49,600
rather than the internet and i think

376
00:14:53,269 --> 00:14:51,360
there's something to be said for that

377
00:14:55,110 --> 00:14:53,279
there are things we're gonna find you

378
00:14:58,470 --> 00:14:55,120
know in the annals of the bookshelves

379
00:15:01,350 --> 00:14:58,480
that we we won't find in the piles and

380
00:15:04,550 --> 00:15:01,360
piles of garbage on the internet so

381
00:15:07,269 --> 00:15:04,560
uh like yourself i do find peter as a uh

382
00:15:08,069 --> 00:15:07,279
my mentor um in specific

383
00:15:11,350 --> 00:15:08,079
and

384
00:15:13,189 --> 00:15:11,360
just a wealth of information absolutely

385
00:15:15,269 --> 00:15:13,199
yeah yeah and again just one of the most

386
00:15:18,790 --> 00:15:15,279
thorough guys i read a review of one of

387
00:15:20,949 --> 00:15:18,800
his lectures by a uh skeptic and it was

388
00:15:23,030 --> 00:15:20,959
a very mean review because the guy was

389
00:15:24,389 --> 00:15:23,040
talking about how uh boring the ufo

390
00:15:26,949 --> 00:15:24,399
subject was

391
00:15:28,790 --> 00:15:26,959
uh in in in observing peter talk about

392
00:15:30,870 --> 00:15:28,800
it i'm thinking you're missing the point

393
00:15:33,990 --> 00:15:30,880
though because i love it when people who

394
00:15:35,590 --> 00:15:34,000
are of a skeptical ilk uh complain when

395
00:15:37,030 --> 00:15:35,600
somebody is thorough if they're going to

396
00:15:38,629 --> 00:15:37,040
look at facts in history about something

397
00:15:40,150 --> 00:15:38,639
or if a scientist for instance comes out

398
00:15:41,189 --> 00:15:40,160
like brian sykes and says you know i

399
00:15:42,550 --> 00:15:41,199
think

400
00:15:44,069 --> 00:15:42,560
we should actually

401
00:15:45,750 --> 00:15:44,079
apply some science to the study of

402
00:15:48,230 --> 00:15:45,760
something like bigfoot

403
00:15:49,509 --> 00:15:48,240
there's a recent dna study that's been

404
00:15:51,430 --> 00:15:49,519
announced i don't think it's been

405
00:15:53,509 --> 00:15:51,440
conducted but they plan to

406
00:15:55,910 --> 00:15:53,519
sample water from different parts of the

407
00:15:58,870 --> 00:15:55,920
famous loch ness and scotland to see if

408
00:16:00,629 --> 00:15:58,880
there is any biological residue that we

409
00:16:02,710 --> 00:16:00,639
might be able to attribute to an unknown

410
00:16:04,790 --> 00:16:02,720
species and again it's interesting there

411
00:16:07,430 --> 00:16:04,800
are people of a skeptical ilk i would

412
00:16:09,030 --> 00:16:07,440
call them more doubters or debunkers

413
00:16:11,269 --> 00:16:09,040
or perhaps as sharon hill has called

414
00:16:12,949 --> 00:16:11,279
them denialists

415
00:16:14,710 --> 00:16:12,959
these kinds of individuals they don't

416
00:16:17,829 --> 00:16:14,720
want to see science

417
00:16:19,509 --> 00:16:17,839
uh being conducted or thorough research

418
00:16:21,430 --> 00:16:19,519
with certain subjects because their mind

419
00:16:23,509 --> 00:16:21,440
has already been made up and so the very

420
00:16:26,230 --> 00:16:23,519
thing that a serious

421
00:16:28,389 --> 00:16:26,240
hardened uh denialist would criticize

422
00:16:29,829 --> 00:16:28,399
someone like peter for is what makes him

423
00:16:31,910 --> 00:16:29,839
such a good researcher it's what makes

424
00:16:33,509 --> 00:16:31,920
him so strong it's what makes him so

425
00:16:34,230 --> 00:16:33,519
revered in the community and what makes

426
00:16:35,189 --> 00:16:34,240
him

427
00:16:37,430 --> 00:16:35,199
such a

428
00:16:39,910 --> 00:16:37,440
powerful individual because again his

429
00:16:42,069 --> 00:16:39,920
mind is like a steel trap and his

430
00:16:44,069 --> 00:16:42,079
attention for details

431
00:16:45,430 --> 00:16:44,079
i don't i'll never understand how anyone

432
00:16:46,949 --> 00:16:45,440
could look at that and say that's not a

433
00:16:50,389 --> 00:16:46,959
good thing it's the best thing and he's

434
00:16:52,150 --> 00:16:50,399
the best at it oh my god dude i mean i

435
00:16:54,550 --> 00:16:52,160
i can't remember what i had for

436
00:16:57,110 --> 00:16:54,560
breakfast but this guy is recalling what

437
00:17:00,470 --> 00:16:57,120
people were wearing you know when he was

438
00:17:02,710 --> 00:17:00,480
12 13 14 years old and he met you know a

439
00:17:03,509 --> 00:17:02,720
famous actress on broadway or he met

440
00:17:08,630 --> 00:17:03,519
this

441
00:17:11,110 --> 00:17:08,640
did he meet those academics or did he

442
00:17:12,549 --> 00:17:11,120
see them at a distance

443
00:17:15,029 --> 00:17:12,559
we're going to have to get his word on

444
00:17:16,710 --> 00:17:15,039
that yeah oh yeah well i can't wait to

445
00:17:18,630 --> 00:17:16,720
come back up and visit and uh

446
00:17:19,990 --> 00:17:18,640
see you and pete we're long overdue for

447
00:17:21,429 --> 00:17:20,000
some more hot chocolate or heck we could

448
00:17:23,189 --> 00:17:21,439
even do coffee or tea this time let's

449
00:17:25,110 --> 00:17:23,199
get crazy let's let's just get a little

450
00:17:27,669 --> 00:17:25,120
nuts for sure

451
00:17:29,590 --> 00:17:27,679
all right so i mean i

452
00:17:31,830 --> 00:17:29,600
i first came across your work through

453
00:17:33,190 --> 00:17:31,840
your book the ufo singularity um which

454
00:17:35,909 --> 00:17:33,200
we can definitely dive into a little bit

455
00:17:37,909 --> 00:17:35,919
if you'd like um but what really struck

456
00:17:39,270 --> 00:17:37,919
me was

457
00:17:41,350 --> 00:17:39,280
there was a

458
00:17:43,510 --> 00:17:41,360
a case that you covered in chapter four

459
00:17:46,710 --> 00:17:43,520
of the book about a gentleman named mike

460
00:17:49,029 --> 00:17:46,720
reese and uh this really caught my

461
00:17:50,470 --> 00:17:49,039
attention and i i'd love if you wouldn't

462
00:17:52,950 --> 00:17:50,480
mind if we could

463
00:17:54,950 --> 00:17:52,960
kind of bring our listeners uh

464
00:17:57,190 --> 00:17:54,960
a little taste of what that case was

465
00:17:58,390 --> 00:17:57,200
walk us through it and what you made of

466
00:18:00,310 --> 00:17:58,400
this

467
00:18:02,789 --> 00:18:00,320
well yeah and in fact i'm still in touch

468
00:18:04,870 --> 00:18:02,799
with mike and i regret that on uh st

469
00:18:06,390 --> 00:18:04,880
patrick's day which last saint patty's

470
00:18:08,070 --> 00:18:06,400
day you'll recall of course on your

471
00:18:11,190 --> 00:18:08,080
other fine podcast i was celebrating

472
00:18:13,830 --> 00:18:11,200
with you and your co-hosts uh this year

473
00:18:15,669 --> 00:18:13,840
i was busy busy busy busy and i wasn't

474
00:18:17,190 --> 00:18:15,679
able to get out of the house at all and

475
00:18:18,470 --> 00:18:17,200
it so happened that i mean everybody was

476
00:18:20,390 --> 00:18:18,480
in asheville that day and they were all

477
00:18:22,310 --> 00:18:20,400
saying hey you got time to catch up have

478
00:18:24,470 --> 00:18:22,320
a drink or something so i didn't get to

479
00:18:25,909 --> 00:18:24,480
meet with mike but he happened to be in

480
00:18:28,789 --> 00:18:25,919
town and i need to get back with him and

481
00:18:29,830 --> 00:18:28,799
let him know we're long overdue

482
00:18:31,750 --> 00:18:29,840
because

483
00:18:33,750 --> 00:18:31,760
he and i are still in touch and how we

484
00:18:37,110 --> 00:18:33,760
met was like yourself he actually found

485
00:18:38,789 --> 00:18:37,120
me through the podcast not the book okay

486
00:18:40,150 --> 00:18:38,799
and he uh

487
00:18:41,750 --> 00:18:40,160
ended up in that book though the very

488
00:18:43,430 --> 00:18:41,760
book that you mentioned

489
00:18:46,070 --> 00:18:43,440
mike uh he reached out and said i love

490
00:18:47,830 --> 00:18:46,080
your podcast uh the grayling report and

491
00:18:49,110 --> 00:18:47,840
i uh have been listening for a while he

492
00:18:50,230 --> 00:18:49,120
said i haven't talked about this in

493
00:18:51,830 --> 00:18:50,240
years but i thought you might be the

494
00:18:53,430 --> 00:18:51,840
right kind of guy to tell

495
00:18:55,350 --> 00:18:53,440
about a ufo experience if you'd like to

496
00:18:57,430 --> 00:18:55,360
hear about it and i said yeah sure

497
00:18:58,950 --> 00:18:57,440
and he said he had all but forgotten

498
00:19:02,070 --> 00:18:58,960
about this and never talked about it

499
00:19:04,230 --> 00:19:02,080
anymore because this experience was just

500
00:19:06,230 --> 00:19:04,240
so surreal but he was not the only

501
00:19:08,390 --> 00:19:06,240
witness uh and there were a lot of

502
00:19:09,750 --> 00:19:08,400
interesting elements of corroboration so

503
00:19:11,350 --> 00:19:09,760
getting down to the nuts and bolts so to

504
00:19:13,590 --> 00:19:11,360
speak i'll just preface this by saying

505
00:19:15,350 --> 00:19:13,600
that 1973 is when this occurred and

506
00:19:19,350 --> 00:19:15,360
right there toward the end of 1973 there

507
00:19:20,870 --> 00:19:19,360
were a lot of significant ufo reports

508
00:19:22,950 --> 00:19:20,880
that have kind of

509
00:19:25,510 --> 00:19:22,960
been gone over and rehashed over the

510
00:19:26,710 --> 00:19:25,520
years and so i wanted to

511
00:19:28,390 --> 00:19:26,720
discuss this

512
00:19:29,830 --> 00:19:28,400
because in in my book the ufo

513
00:19:31,510 --> 00:19:29,840
singularity i wanted to talk about what

514
00:19:34,310 --> 00:19:31,520
mike reese experienced

515
00:19:36,230 --> 00:19:34,320
because it not only coincided roughly

516
00:19:38,150 --> 00:19:36,240
with that period 1973 i mean the

517
00:19:39,590 --> 00:19:38,160
pascagoula abduction of charles hickson

518
00:19:41,350 --> 00:19:39,600
and calvin parker that was a big one but

519
00:19:42,230 --> 00:19:41,360
there were others too right around that

520
00:19:46,870 --> 00:19:42,240
time

521
00:19:48,710 --> 00:19:46,880
a case that was i think as interesting

522
00:19:50,390 --> 00:19:48,720
as any of those and yet

523
00:19:52,230 --> 00:19:50,400
had never been discussed because as we

524
00:19:53,990 --> 00:19:52,240
often see and you talk about this kind

525
00:19:55,350 --> 00:19:54,000
of thing a lot in your book

526
00:19:56,470 --> 00:19:55,360
ryan um

527
00:19:58,230 --> 00:19:56,480
a lot of people when they've seen these

528
00:19:59,750 --> 00:19:58,240
kind of things they they second guess

529
00:20:01,110 --> 00:19:59,760
themselves they are worried what people

530
00:20:02,470 --> 00:20:01,120
will think about what they have to say

531
00:20:04,390 --> 00:20:02,480
and they don't come forward and talk

532
00:20:06,710 --> 00:20:04,400
about it right so

533
00:20:08,549 --> 00:20:06,720
so mike hadn't talked about this and uh

534
00:20:10,230 --> 00:20:08,559
asked could i come to you and discuss

535
00:20:11,270 --> 00:20:10,240
what i saw back in 73 would you be

536
00:20:12,390 --> 00:20:11,280
interested i said sure and i thought

537
00:20:13,830 --> 00:20:12,400
he's going to talk about a light in the

538
00:20:15,350 --> 00:20:13,840
sky and boy

539
00:20:17,750 --> 00:20:15,360
it was anything but just a light in the

540
00:20:20,230 --> 00:20:17,760
sky although the case began that way it

541
00:20:21,750 --> 00:20:20,240
was probably in late november 1973 he

542
00:20:23,750 --> 00:20:21,760
couldn't remember the exact night but we

543
00:20:25,190 --> 00:20:23,760
tried to to work all that out and i

544
00:20:27,669 --> 00:20:25,200
traveled with him to the location where

545
00:20:29,430 --> 00:20:27,679
he saw this which was locust grove

546
00:20:31,430 --> 00:20:29,440
just outside of uh

547
00:20:33,350 --> 00:20:31,440
atlanta georgia but he actually i think

548
00:20:35,750 --> 00:20:33,360
lived in an area called forest park and

549
00:20:37,110 --> 00:20:35,760
was in route from atlanta back to forest

550
00:20:39,430 --> 00:20:37,120
park and passing through this area

551
00:20:41,430 --> 00:20:39,440
locust grove and there's what's known as

552
00:20:42,630 --> 00:20:41,440
the bill gardner highway

553
00:20:44,230 --> 00:20:42,640
that you can get onto and then you get

554
00:20:45,750 --> 00:20:44,240
back on the interstate and everything

555
00:20:47,669 --> 00:20:45,760
and he had been driving north on highway

556
00:20:49,909 --> 00:20:47,679
2342

557
00:20:52,470 --> 00:20:49,919
and again it was probably after midnight

558
00:20:54,070 --> 00:20:52,480
and he sees again a bright white light

559
00:20:55,590 --> 00:20:54,080
off in the distance

560
00:20:57,270 --> 00:20:55,600
which he said he would have thought it

561
00:20:58,390 --> 00:20:57,280
was a helicopter but he he couldn't

562
00:20:59,750 --> 00:20:58,400
place it he said there was just

563
00:21:01,830 --> 00:20:59,760
something about it that wasn't quite

564
00:21:04,070 --> 00:21:01,840
right something seemed off about the

565
00:21:06,230 --> 00:21:04,080
movement of the object it's sort of

566
00:21:08,549 --> 00:21:06,240
like if you're out at night and you if

567
00:21:09,990 --> 00:21:08,559
you can spot celestial bodies uh like

568
00:21:11,669 --> 00:21:10,000
you know for instance first we'll say a

569
00:21:14,149 --> 00:21:11,679
star further out you're going to notice

570
00:21:15,510 --> 00:21:14,159
what's called scintillation a twinkling

571
00:21:17,270 --> 00:21:15,520
and this is what causes the twinkling

572
00:21:19,590 --> 00:21:17,280
effect of the stars whereas

573
00:21:21,830 --> 00:21:19,600
our own uh solar bodies here within our

574
00:21:23,510 --> 00:21:21,840
solar system the actual planetary bodies

575
00:21:26,070 --> 00:21:23,520
uh most prevalent usually are going to

576
00:21:26,870 --> 00:21:26,080
be venus or jupiter or saturn they're

577
00:21:28,310 --> 00:21:26,880
not going to have that kind of

578
00:21:29,510 --> 00:21:28,320
scintillation they're closer they're

579
00:21:30,390 --> 00:21:29,520
actual planets they're reflecting

580
00:21:31,990 --> 00:21:30,400
sunlight

581
00:21:34,230 --> 00:21:32,000
and they're you know in terms of

582
00:21:35,909 --> 00:21:34,240
proximity much closer so he said that

583
00:21:37,430 --> 00:21:35,919
the the appearance of the light you

584
00:21:38,549 --> 00:21:37,440
might like into scintillation or

585
00:21:40,230 --> 00:21:38,559
something but there was also this kind

586
00:21:41,990 --> 00:21:40,240
of an awkward almost aberrant kind of

587
00:21:43,430 --> 00:21:42,000
movement

588
00:21:45,110 --> 00:21:43,440
and as he's watching this thing move

589
00:21:46,549 --> 00:21:45,120
through the air he misses his turn

590
00:21:48,789 --> 00:21:46,559
intentionally and starts heading in the

591
00:21:51,110 --> 00:21:48,799
direction of the line and so his wife

592
00:21:52,789 --> 00:21:51,120
and his sister and uh their children i

593
00:21:55,909 --> 00:21:52,799
think he said his first born and also

594
00:21:57,510 --> 00:21:55,919
his uh sister's two little children very

595
00:21:58,950 --> 00:21:57,520
small and i don't think they would have

596
00:22:00,710 --> 00:21:58,960
remembered this

597
00:22:02,630 --> 00:22:00,720
they were in the vehicle and so

598
00:22:04,070 --> 00:22:02,640
altogether there were three adult

599
00:22:05,510 --> 00:22:04,080
observers who were awakened who were

600
00:22:08,549 --> 00:22:05,520
aware at this time

601
00:22:10,310 --> 00:22:08,559
as his wife had been in the uh front

602
00:22:12,149 --> 00:22:10,320
passenger seat with him his sister in

603
00:22:13,510 --> 00:22:12,159
the back seat and they were all saying

604
00:22:15,110 --> 00:22:13,520
mike what are you doing you just missed

605
00:22:16,390 --> 00:22:15,120
your training says well i just need to i

606
00:22:18,470 --> 00:22:16,400
want to see what this was something

607
00:22:20,549 --> 00:22:18,480
about that light wasn't quite right

608
00:22:22,549 --> 00:22:20,559
as he's getting closer and again keep in

609
00:22:25,029 --> 00:22:22,559
mind i met him here in north carolina we

610
00:22:27,669 --> 00:22:25,039
drove all the way down to atlanta and we

611
00:22:29,029 --> 00:22:27,679
went and we retraced these steps so as i

612
00:22:31,110 --> 00:22:29,039
am driving up

613
00:22:33,270 --> 00:22:31,120
the highway with him he points to the

614
00:22:35,029 --> 00:22:33,280
same little row of trees and sure enough

615
00:22:37,190 --> 00:22:35,039
the same power substation on the left

616
00:22:38,310 --> 00:22:37,200
side of the road headed north is still

617
00:22:40,070 --> 00:22:38,320
there

618
00:22:41,750 --> 00:22:40,080
and he said as we were coming you got to

619
00:22:43,430 --> 00:22:41,760
keep in mind it's late at night so the

620
00:22:44,710 --> 00:22:43,440
bright light of whatever this object was

621
00:22:46,549 --> 00:22:44,720
it had stopped moving it was now

622
00:22:48,310 --> 00:22:46,559
hovering roughly over the area where

623
00:22:49,909 --> 00:22:48,320
this power substation directly ahead of

624
00:22:51,669 --> 00:22:49,919
us was

625
00:22:53,110 --> 00:22:51,679
and we're able to see the light beaming

626
00:22:55,270 --> 00:22:53,120
through the trees but we can't make out

627
00:22:57,669 --> 00:22:55,280
anything yet and he said i was getting

628
00:22:59,029 --> 00:22:57,679
so excited the anticipation building as

629
00:23:00,549 --> 00:22:59,039
i'm coming up on this object you

630
00:23:02,230 --> 00:23:00,559
couldn't imagine

631
00:23:04,230 --> 00:23:02,240
and then as he gets close enough to this

632
00:23:05,990 --> 00:23:04,240
thing lo and behold

633
00:23:07,990 --> 00:23:06,000
he pulls up he swerves off the side of

634
00:23:10,070 --> 00:23:08,000
the road we parked exactly where he

635
00:23:12,149 --> 00:23:10,080
presumes again decades ago that he had

636
00:23:14,310 --> 00:23:12,159
actually pulled up off the road and he

637
00:23:17,029 --> 00:23:14,320
leaps out of the car because directly

638
00:23:18,310 --> 00:23:17,039
over this power substation he is able to

639
00:23:19,990 --> 00:23:18,320
see

640
00:23:22,630 --> 00:23:20,000
a and this is interesting okay a lot of

641
00:23:24,950 --> 00:23:22,640
ufo cases involve amorphous objects a

642
00:23:26,549 --> 00:23:24,960
lot of them involve triangles from time

643
00:23:28,549 --> 00:23:26,559
to time you know you also get elliptical

644
00:23:30,310 --> 00:23:28,559
kind of objects there aren't very many

645
00:23:31,590 --> 00:23:30,320
that really are good

646
00:23:33,510 --> 00:23:31,600
what i would call

647
00:23:34,789 --> 00:23:33,520
saucers or discs

648
00:23:36,789 --> 00:23:34,799
and the reason i point that out is

649
00:23:38,789 --> 00:23:36,799
because again although jay allen heineck

650
00:23:41,350 --> 00:23:38,799
first instituted that terminology back

651
00:23:42,870 --> 00:23:41,360
in the 19 uh maybe he may have used it

652
00:23:44,870 --> 00:23:42,880
as early as the 1950s but really the

653
00:23:46,950 --> 00:23:44,880
1960s is when it began you know kind of

654
00:23:49,830 --> 00:23:46,960
became canon

655
00:23:51,990 --> 00:23:49,840
so to speak to ufology um the daylight

656
00:23:53,029 --> 00:23:52,000
disc designation referred to a range of

657
00:23:54,470 --> 00:23:53,039
different objects of different

658
00:23:57,190 --> 00:23:54,480
appearance not

659
00:23:58,470 --> 00:23:57,200
just discs and the whole thing of flying

660
00:24:00,710 --> 00:23:58,480
saucer

661
00:24:02,870 --> 00:24:00,720
was in reference to the mode of

662
00:24:04,470 --> 00:24:02,880
transportation or the movement

663
00:24:06,310 --> 00:24:04,480
okay the locomotion of the objects

664
00:24:08,310 --> 00:24:06,320
observed by kenneth arnold not the

665
00:24:10,630 --> 00:24:08,320
actual description of their shape

666
00:24:12,390 --> 00:24:10,640
initially right that's a whole different

667
00:24:13,830 --> 00:24:12,400
thing we could get into later but it's

668
00:24:15,830 --> 00:24:13,840
important to point that out here because

669
00:24:18,549 --> 00:24:15,840
what mike reese saw

670
00:24:20,549 --> 00:24:18,559
was a distinctly disc shaped

671
00:24:21,830 --> 00:24:20,559
object and it was hovering he said that

672
00:24:23,909 --> 00:24:21,840
there were lights all around the

673
00:24:25,990 --> 00:24:23,919
perimeter that were going in a sequence

674
00:24:27,669 --> 00:24:26,000
of red green blue red green blue like

675
00:24:29,029 --> 00:24:27,679
that and that he was able to observe

676
00:24:31,110 --> 00:24:29,039
this thing hovering

677
00:24:32,789 --> 00:24:31,120
for several minutes now he said i i

678
00:24:34,070 --> 00:24:32,799
swerve over you know park the car and i

679
00:24:35,350 --> 00:24:34,080
jump out and i see this thing and he

680
00:24:37,510 --> 00:24:35,360
said i was

681
00:24:38,870 --> 00:24:37,520
so excited and i asked him i said what

682
00:24:40,310 --> 00:24:38,880
did you do did you just stand there and

683
00:24:41,510 --> 00:24:40,320
look he said i jumped up and down i was

684
00:24:41,980 --> 00:24:41,520
waving my arms trying to get its

685
00:24:43,990 --> 00:24:41,990
attention

686
00:24:45,750 --> 00:24:44,000
[Laughter]

687
00:24:47,909 --> 00:24:45,760
and he said i just wanted to know who

688
00:24:49,430 --> 00:24:47,919
was on board that thing

689
00:24:51,110 --> 00:24:49,440
and what's really interesting about

690
00:24:52,470 --> 00:24:51,120
mike's interpretation i tried to be very

691
00:24:53,669 --> 00:24:52,480
careful about leading the witness and i

692
00:24:54,870 --> 00:24:53,679
said who did you think was on board he

693
00:24:56,390 --> 00:24:54,880
said i don't know scientists or

694
00:24:57,430 --> 00:24:56,400
something like that

695
00:24:58,710 --> 00:24:57,440
where you think they were from and he

696
00:24:59,830 --> 00:24:58,720
says i don't know they could have been

697
00:25:02,070 --> 00:24:59,840
from out there but he said something

698
00:25:03,350 --> 00:25:02,080
about this object being able to see it

699
00:25:04,789 --> 00:25:03,360
and not just hear about this kind of a

700
00:25:06,549 --> 00:25:04,799
thing he said his father was always

701
00:25:07,830 --> 00:25:06,559
interested in the unusual

702
00:25:09,990 --> 00:25:07,840
and that he had had things like fake

703
00:25:11,990 --> 00:25:10,000
magazine laying around when he was a kid

704
00:25:16,310 --> 00:25:12,000
but he said

705
00:25:18,310 --> 00:25:16,320
this object uh defied all expectations

706
00:25:21,430 --> 00:25:18,320
it didn't seem otherworldly but then

707
00:25:24,149 --> 00:25:21,440
again it was unlike any aircraft or any

708
00:25:26,470 --> 00:25:24,159
kind of device machinery anything that

709
00:25:28,310 --> 00:25:26,480
he had ever seen or could conceive of

710
00:25:30,070 --> 00:25:28,320
existing on earth and so he said

711
00:25:31,750 --> 00:25:30,080
something told me this was perhaps an

712
00:25:33,190 --> 00:25:31,760
earthly technology that nothing about

713
00:25:35,350 --> 00:25:33,200
this said this is so far out it's got to

714
00:25:37,510 --> 00:25:35,360
be aliens but then again i mean that was

715
00:25:39,669 --> 00:25:37,520
me jumping up and down looking at this

716
00:25:41,830 --> 00:25:39,679
thing not reading about it in a magazine

717
00:25:43,350 --> 00:25:41,840
now his wife and his sister were

718
00:25:44,630 --> 00:25:43,360
terrified and they were screaming at him

719
00:25:45,830 --> 00:25:44,640
get back in the car they were so

720
00:25:48,390 --> 00:25:45,840
frightened

721
00:25:51,909 --> 00:25:48,400
and when i met with him back in probably

722
00:25:54,710 --> 00:25:51,919
2011 for dinner uh his uh wife at the

723
00:25:56,310 --> 00:25:54,720
time they had divorced unfortunately but

724
00:25:58,390 --> 00:25:56,320
she wasn't present but his sister did

725
00:26:00,950 --> 00:25:58,400
come out that night and uh she was able

726
00:26:02,870 --> 00:26:00,960
to confirm that the details that mike

727
00:26:04,630 --> 00:26:02,880
had given me were correct and he

728
00:26:06,950 --> 00:26:04,640
provided not only a full written report

729
00:26:08,149 --> 00:26:06,960
but then we also met and discussed it

730
00:26:10,310 --> 00:26:08,159
his story's never changed there had

731
00:26:12,470 --> 00:26:10,320
never been weird crazy you know

732
00:26:13,669 --> 00:26:12,480
additions or anything like that he did

733
00:26:14,789 --> 00:26:13,679
say

734
00:26:16,630 --> 00:26:14,799
that at the time he worked for the

735
00:26:19,909 --> 00:26:16,640
georgia division of transportation and

736
00:26:22,230 --> 00:26:19,919
that the next day at work he suddenly

737
00:26:23,669 --> 00:26:22,240
had a headache and got sick physically

738
00:26:25,190 --> 00:26:23,679
sick and had be had to be taken to the

739
00:26:28,149 --> 00:26:25,200
infirmary

740
00:26:29,830 --> 00:26:28,159
and uh yeah they told him that uh he had

741
00:26:31,990 --> 00:26:29,840
suffered from an ocular headache and

742
00:26:33,190 --> 00:26:32,000
that was all but again i wondered i mean

743
00:26:34,390 --> 00:26:33,200
what might have caused this headache

744
00:26:35,830 --> 00:26:34,400
because we do as we're going to look at

745
00:26:38,149 --> 00:26:35,840
a little later with another ufo case i

746
00:26:40,310 --> 00:26:38,159
think we're going to be discussing there

747
00:26:41,510 --> 00:26:40,320
are people who after they have observed

748
00:26:44,230 --> 00:26:41,520
a ufo

749
00:26:46,950 --> 00:26:44,240
uh at close distance they will suffer

750
00:26:48,789 --> 00:26:46,960
physical effects uh that are typically

751
00:26:50,870 --> 00:26:48,799
not very good right so

752
00:26:52,230 --> 00:26:50,880
um the other thing that was so sad was

753
00:26:54,470 --> 00:26:52,240
that mike had a good friend that he

754
00:26:56,230 --> 00:26:54,480
worked with uh there at the d.o.t and he

755
00:26:57,430 --> 00:26:56,240
started to describe this the next day

756
00:26:58,789 --> 00:26:57,440
and he said that they talked about space

757
00:27:00,789 --> 00:26:58,799
and astronomy and things like that all

758
00:27:02,789 --> 00:27:00,799
the time as he began to describe the

759
00:27:05,510 --> 00:27:02,799
object that he saw he says his friend

760
00:27:07,510 --> 00:27:05,520
his eyes widened and he he said it was

761
00:27:09,269 --> 00:27:07,520
the most palpable

762
00:27:10,070 --> 00:27:09,279
uh sense of

763
00:27:11,269 --> 00:27:10,080
uh

764
00:27:12,710 --> 00:27:11,279
how what would you call it i guess i

765
00:27:14,549 --> 00:27:12,720
mean it was just this guy thought that

766
00:27:16,230 --> 00:27:14,559
mike was nuts and literally almost just

767
00:27:18,789 --> 00:27:16,240
didn't want to have anything to do with

768
00:27:20,149 --> 00:27:18,799
him anymore after this experience

769
00:27:21,669 --> 00:27:20,159
and he said it was those kinds of

770
00:27:23,909 --> 00:27:21,679
experiences when i would try to talk to

771
00:27:25,590 --> 00:27:23,919
somebody about this uh and they would

772
00:27:27,190 --> 00:27:25,600
absolutely shun me i just shut up and i

773
00:27:29,029 --> 00:27:27,200
just quit talking about it but he said i

774
00:27:31,590 --> 00:27:29,039
did right after it happened

775
00:27:32,710 --> 00:27:31,600
i did contact the the local news station

776
00:27:34,390 --> 00:27:32,720
there in atlanta and they said they'd

777
00:27:35,750 --> 00:27:34,400
gotten all kinds of reports

778
00:27:37,110 --> 00:27:35,760
of you know people who had been driving

779
00:27:39,590 --> 00:27:37,120
that night over on the adjacent

780
00:27:41,430 --> 00:27:39,600
interstate because he watched the object

781
00:27:43,590 --> 00:27:41,440
and it hovered for several minutes and

782
00:27:44,789 --> 00:27:43,600
then it began to drift off probably what

783
00:27:46,390 --> 00:27:44,799
would have been to the west over in the

784
00:27:47,830 --> 00:27:46,400
direction of the interstate and he said

785
00:27:48,870 --> 00:27:47,840
i knew as i was watching this thing move

786
00:27:50,390 --> 00:27:48,880
in that direction people out there

787
00:27:51,590 --> 00:27:50,400
driving on the highway had to have seen

788
00:27:53,430 --> 00:27:51,600
it and sure enough they'd gotten a

789
00:27:54,950 --> 00:27:53,440
couple of reports there at the uh

790
00:27:56,310 --> 00:27:54,960
at the news station that he said but but

791
00:27:57,909 --> 00:27:56,320
again nobody seemed to really report on

792
00:27:59,909 --> 00:27:57,919
this because it just seemed oh you know

793
00:28:02,470 --> 00:27:59,919
crazy yeah so

794
00:28:03,750 --> 00:28:02,480
you know that was his uh report and one

795
00:28:05,669 --> 00:28:03,760
of the things that i found extremely

796
00:28:07,590 --> 00:28:05,679
interesting about it was uh the the

797
00:28:09,510 --> 00:28:07,600
sequence of the colors

798
00:28:11,029 --> 00:28:09,520
that were moving around the periphery of

799
00:28:12,950 --> 00:28:11,039
the object because again that red green

800
00:28:14,549 --> 00:28:12,960
and blue you got to keep in mind that uh

801
00:28:16,310 --> 00:28:14,559
red green and blue are the primary

802
00:28:17,830 --> 00:28:16,320
colors as far as light goes whereas with

803
00:28:19,510 --> 00:28:17,840
pigments it's yellow green and or i'm

804
00:28:21,269 --> 00:28:19,520
sorry yellow red and blue

805
00:28:23,350 --> 00:28:21,279
when you combine those those three

806
00:28:25,029 --> 00:28:23,360
primary this is referring to what's

807
00:28:26,710 --> 00:28:25,039
called additive light theory essentially

808
00:28:28,830 --> 00:28:26,720
you combine those three colors of the

809
00:28:31,669 --> 00:28:28,840
primary spectra and you get white

810
00:28:33,350 --> 00:28:31,679
light and he described initially having

811
00:28:35,669 --> 00:28:33,360
seen the thing at a distance

812
00:28:37,190 --> 00:28:35,679
as resembling a white light that he said

813
00:28:40,630 --> 00:28:37,200
something about it was weird again

814
00:28:42,070 --> 00:28:40,640
that's sort of scintillation but not

815
00:28:45,590 --> 00:28:42,080
and what that said to me was i mean this

816
00:28:47,750 --> 00:28:45,600
is a an obvious clue about the uh the

817
00:28:49,190 --> 00:28:47,760
mechanism and the locomotion of this

818
00:28:50,950 --> 00:28:49,200
object what was propelling through the

819
00:28:53,190 --> 00:28:50,960
sky i asked him i said was there any

820
00:28:54,630 --> 00:28:53,200
evidence of this object turning

821
00:28:55,430 --> 00:28:54,640
counterclockwise or otherwise and he

822
00:28:57,190 --> 00:28:55,440
said

823
00:28:59,430 --> 00:28:57,200
he could really discern

824
00:29:00,789 --> 00:28:59,440
he said that the odd the lights moving

825
00:29:02,070 --> 00:29:00,799
in sequence might have given that

826
00:29:03,750 --> 00:29:02,080
appearance but he said it was too

827
00:29:05,350 --> 00:29:03,760
difficult to discern because this the

828
00:29:08,070 --> 00:29:05,360
actual exterior of the craft looked like

829
00:29:10,310 --> 00:29:08,080
a kind of brushed uh silvery gray very

830
00:29:12,710 --> 00:29:10,320
dark uh but metallic and of course in

831
00:29:13,990 --> 00:29:12,720
those conditions very little could be

832
00:29:15,669 --> 00:29:14,000
discerned but the other interesting

833
00:29:19,029 --> 00:29:15,679
thing about it again is this object

834
00:29:20,789 --> 00:29:19,039
hovering over a uh power substation

835
00:29:22,870 --> 00:29:20,799
in other ufological literature we hear

836
00:29:25,110 --> 00:29:22,880
about this kind of thing often ryan

837
00:29:28,549 --> 00:29:25,120
ufos that hover over power substations

838
00:29:30,710 --> 00:29:28,559
or over nuclear facilities absolutely

839
00:29:32,149 --> 00:29:30,720
yeah i mean the maelstrom air force base

840
00:29:34,789 --> 00:29:32,159
incident comes to mind first and

841
00:29:36,470 --> 00:29:34,799
foremost but yeah please elaborate

842
00:29:38,389 --> 00:29:36,480
well just to be briefly i'll give you

843
00:29:40,710 --> 00:29:38,399
another recent example john greenwald of

844
00:29:42,710 --> 00:29:40,720
the black vault has for years done a

845
00:29:45,110 --> 00:29:42,720
fabulous job obtaining government

846
00:29:47,110 --> 00:29:45,120
documentation about ufos and again i

847
00:29:48,710 --> 00:29:47,120
don't understand the mentality of people

848
00:29:50,310 --> 00:29:48,720
who would turn their nose up at this

849
00:29:52,230 --> 00:29:50,320
alleged phenomena when you can go and

850
00:29:54,389 --> 00:29:52,240
you can read these documents the most

851
00:29:55,909 --> 00:29:54,399
recent had been i think the nuclear

852
00:29:58,310 --> 00:29:55,919
regulatory commission

853
00:29:59,750 --> 00:29:58,320
he had uh sent an foia request to them

854
00:30:01,510 --> 00:29:59,760
and they finally sent back a series of

855
00:30:04,070 --> 00:30:01,520
documents that referred to a incident

856
00:30:06,870 --> 00:30:04,080
that occurred around 1986 where a

857
00:30:09,190 --> 00:30:06,880
triangular shaped aircraft

858
00:30:11,350 --> 00:30:09,200
uh had been traveling down the missouri

859
00:30:13,269 --> 00:30:11,360
river about 150 feet i believe if memory

860
00:30:14,870 --> 00:30:13,279
serves above the water and it hovered

861
00:30:15,990 --> 00:30:14,880
outside the intake of this nuclear

862
00:30:17,669 --> 00:30:16,000
facility

863
00:30:19,510 --> 00:30:17,679
and the first night there had been only

864
00:30:21,190 --> 00:30:19,520
one member of the

865
00:30:22,549 --> 00:30:21,200
security staff who had observed it he

866
00:30:24,549 --> 00:30:22,559
tells a bunch of the other people the

867
00:30:26,630 --> 00:30:24,559
next day what happens you guessed it

868
00:30:28,149 --> 00:30:26,640
they all laughed they didn't believe him

869
00:30:29,909 --> 00:30:28,159
well lo and behold they say lightning

870
00:30:32,789 --> 00:30:29,919
doesn't strike twice that may be the

871
00:30:34,630 --> 00:30:32,799
case but ufos occasionally do return to

872
00:30:36,549 --> 00:30:34,640
the same location once again and in this

873
00:30:38,070 --> 00:30:36,559
instance the very next night he's out

874
00:30:39,350 --> 00:30:38,080
there there are other guards on duty

875
00:30:40,789 --> 00:30:39,360
some of them the ones who had laughed

876
00:30:42,549 --> 00:30:40,799
the night before

877
00:30:43,830 --> 00:30:42,559
and they see this thing coming back down

878
00:30:45,830 --> 00:30:43,840
the missouri river once again and it

879
00:30:47,029 --> 00:30:45,840
hovers next to the intake

880
00:30:48,870 --> 00:30:47,039
for several minutes then turns around

881
00:30:50,470 --> 00:30:48,880
and goes back up the river

882
00:30:53,350 --> 00:30:50,480
this time they were able to get a bunch

883
00:30:55,909 --> 00:30:53,360
of people out there they all saw it

884
00:30:57,190 --> 00:30:55,919
see that's interesting when whenever i

885
00:30:59,430 --> 00:30:57,200
hear i don't know about you micah but

886
00:31:02,310 --> 00:30:59,440
when i hear about repeatability of these

887
00:31:05,669 --> 00:31:02,320
ufo events night after night that's when

888
00:31:08,070 --> 00:31:05,679
my my skeptical lens comes on and i do

889
00:31:10,389 --> 00:31:08,080
begin to wonder if this is something uh

890
00:31:14,549 --> 00:31:10,399
conventional if this is something

891
00:31:16,710 --> 00:31:14,559
uh man-made or possibly some sort of uh

892
00:31:19,350 --> 00:31:16,720
weather anomaly um due to the

893
00:31:21,350 --> 00:31:19,360
consistency of it uh what do you make of

894
00:31:23,269 --> 00:31:21,360
that idea that you know if this thing is

895
00:31:25,269 --> 00:31:23,279
happening over consecutive nights you

896
00:31:27,590 --> 00:31:25,279
could look at something like even the

897
00:31:29,830 --> 00:31:27,600
the bentwaters case um

898
00:31:31,990 --> 00:31:29,840
that it's happening over and over again

899
00:31:34,950 --> 00:31:32,000
uh is this whatever it is surveilling

900
00:31:36,230 --> 00:31:34,960
the area constantly or is this possibly

901
00:31:39,110 --> 00:31:36,240
some sort of

902
00:31:41,029 --> 00:31:39,120
uh consistent anomaly

903
00:31:43,350 --> 00:31:41,039
it's difficult to say uh in this region

904
00:31:45,669 --> 00:31:43,360
where i live we have uh the black

905
00:31:47,830 --> 00:31:45,679
mountain range a little further south of

906
00:31:49,830 --> 00:31:47,840
uh asheville where i am

907
00:31:51,430 --> 00:31:49,840
and uh in the black mountain range uh

908
00:31:53,190 --> 00:31:51,440
particularly around the area called the

909
00:31:54,549 --> 00:31:53,200
linville gorge it's one of the most

910
00:31:57,029 --> 00:31:54,559
beautiful scenic

911
00:31:58,389 --> 00:31:57,039
uh wilderness areas uh really i think on

912
00:32:00,470 --> 00:31:58,399
the eastern united states and it's one

913
00:32:02,389 --> 00:32:00,480
of the largest gorges which they would

914
00:32:04,310 --> 00:32:02,399
call a canyon out west but the largest

915
00:32:07,110 --> 00:32:04,320
east of the mississippi

916
00:32:09,909 --> 00:32:07,120
and i think that the geological features

917
00:32:10,710 --> 00:32:09,919
present there are probably a big part of

918
00:32:15,110 --> 00:32:10,720
what

919
00:32:16,230 --> 00:32:15,120
uh is is uh behind the the mechanism

920
00:32:17,590 --> 00:32:16,240
if you want to call it that behind

921
00:32:18,789 --> 00:32:17,600
what's known as the brown mountain

922
00:32:20,470 --> 00:32:18,799
lights

923
00:32:22,149 --> 00:32:20,480
there is some variety of earth light

924
00:32:24,950 --> 00:32:22,159
phenomena that occurs there and i have

925
00:32:25,990 --> 00:32:24,960
seen uh very good photographs over the

926
00:32:27,110 --> 00:32:26,000
years

927
00:32:29,110 --> 00:32:27,120
you know i've been down there and i've

928
00:32:31,190 --> 00:32:29,120
had a couple of experiences where there

929
00:32:33,110 --> 00:32:31,200
may have been things that i also

930
00:32:34,389 --> 00:32:33,120
observed myself and i know that sounds

931
00:32:36,310 --> 00:32:34,399
very dodgy way there may have been

932
00:32:38,389 --> 00:32:36,320
things you observed but again

933
00:32:40,230 --> 00:32:38,399
what i've seen has never been

934
00:32:41,590 --> 00:32:40,240
on par with the things that people have

935
00:32:43,190 --> 00:32:41,600
described that they have seen i mean i'm

936
00:32:45,269 --> 00:32:43,200
talking people have said they've seen

937
00:32:47,990 --> 00:32:45,279
large bright white beach ball shaped

938
00:32:49,909 --> 00:32:48,000
orbs of light that ascend into the uh

939
00:32:51,350 --> 00:32:49,919
air they usually come off of one of the

940
00:32:52,310 --> 00:32:51,360
adjacent ridges sometimes they will

941
00:32:53,509 --> 00:32:52,320
travel

942
00:32:55,269 --> 00:32:53,519
over the gorge and come in their

943
00:32:56,950 --> 00:32:55,279
direction and hover and things like this

944
00:32:58,149 --> 00:32:56,960
see i've never had that happen but a lot

945
00:32:59,509 --> 00:32:58,159
of people described that down there in

946
00:33:00,630 --> 00:32:59,519
the level gorge so the brown mountain

947
00:33:02,470 --> 00:33:00,640
phenomena

948
00:33:03,909 --> 00:33:02,480
again that seems to be a recurring

949
00:33:06,310 --> 00:33:03,919
natural phenomena and there are

950
00:33:08,710 --> 00:33:06,320
scientists like my friend dr

951
00:33:10,070 --> 00:33:08,720
uh oh gosh i almost said albert goodyear

952
00:33:13,590 --> 00:33:10,080
that's a different scientist friend of

953
00:33:15,909 --> 00:33:13,600
mine this is daniel dr daniel cayton

954
00:33:18,149 --> 00:33:15,919
who's an astronomer uh there at app

955
00:33:20,470 --> 00:33:18,159
state uh he's again a very skeptically

956
00:33:22,149 --> 00:33:20,480
minded person uh who has admitted that

957
00:33:23,830 --> 00:33:22,159
he'd gotten to a point of cynicism about

958
00:33:25,430 --> 00:33:23,840
brown mountain because he spent so many

959
00:33:29,029 --> 00:33:25,440
years not seeing anything

960
00:33:30,549 --> 00:33:29,039
until last year when they had a pair of

961
00:33:32,310 --> 00:33:30,559
remote

962
00:33:34,389 --> 00:33:32,320
web cameras that were positioned on

963
00:33:36,310 --> 00:33:34,399
different ridges which allowed them to

964
00:33:37,909 --> 00:33:36,320
observe the brown mountain the primary

965
00:33:39,509 --> 00:33:37,919
brown mountain ridge for which the

966
00:33:40,950 --> 00:33:39,519
phenomena is named although again i've

967
00:33:42,870 --> 00:33:40,960
said it shows up in different parts of

968
00:33:44,870 --> 00:33:42,880
the gorge but he was able to actually

969
00:33:46,870 --> 00:33:44,880
obtain two different pieces of footage

970
00:33:48,870 --> 00:33:46,880
that show up an apparent transient light

971
00:33:49,909 --> 00:33:48,880
phenomena over that ridge from different

972
00:33:52,870 --> 00:33:49,919
angles

973
00:33:54,310 --> 00:33:52,880
and this has really excited him because

974
00:33:55,669 --> 00:33:54,320
it seems although that it's like

975
00:33:57,509 --> 00:33:55,679
something kind of similar to ball

976
00:33:59,590 --> 00:33:57,519
lightning that there is again this

977
00:34:01,430 --> 00:33:59,600
unique repeatability about that region

978
00:34:03,110 --> 00:34:01,440
so yeah it does seem to happen and i

979
00:34:05,269 --> 00:34:03,120
again would think that rather than being

980
00:34:07,830 --> 00:34:05,279
something that's a uh you know a an

981
00:34:09,829 --> 00:34:07,840
aircraft or something a technology that

982
00:34:12,470 --> 00:34:09,839
a lot of this stuff is indeed

983
00:34:15,270 --> 00:34:12,480
probably more likely to be um

984
00:34:16,950 --> 00:34:15,280
you know a variety of natural earthly

985
00:34:18,710 --> 00:34:16,960
phenomena but then you have something

986
00:34:20,710 --> 00:34:18,720
like bent waters which really that case

987
00:34:22,069 --> 00:34:20,720
is so crazy and you've spent a lot of

988
00:34:24,069 --> 00:34:22,079
time looking into that and so has peter

989
00:34:25,030 --> 00:34:24,079
robbins a lot of people

990
00:34:26,950 --> 00:34:25,040
again

991
00:34:28,230 --> 00:34:26,960
that's a that's a politically difficult

992
00:34:29,349 --> 00:34:28,240
one to discuss right now because there's

993
00:34:30,869 --> 00:34:29,359
so many

994
00:34:32,629 --> 00:34:30,879
different opinions but i'll say this

995
00:34:33,990 --> 00:34:32,639
because again all i'm really trying to

996
00:34:36,069 --> 00:34:34,000
you know express there's there's so much

997
00:34:37,829 --> 00:34:36,079
about you know rendelsham that there's

998
00:34:38,869 --> 00:34:37,839
too much to get into right now

999
00:34:40,389 --> 00:34:38,879
but

1000
00:34:41,829 --> 00:34:40,399
again the fact that there was something

1001
00:34:42,790 --> 00:34:41,839
that occurred over several consecutive

1002
00:34:43,669 --> 00:34:42,800
nights

1003
00:34:45,430 --> 00:34:43,679
um

1004
00:34:47,270 --> 00:34:45,440
that was interesting but that didn't

1005
00:34:49,109 --> 00:34:47,280
sound to me like it was

1006
00:34:50,790 --> 00:34:49,119
in likelihood some kind of earth-like

1007
00:34:52,149 --> 00:34:50,800
phenomena or something along those lines

1008
00:34:53,829 --> 00:34:52,159
what was described did seem to be

1009
00:34:55,510 --> 00:34:53,839
something that was more

1010
00:34:59,349 --> 00:34:55,520
it appeared technological in origin but

1011
00:35:00,710 --> 00:34:59,359
it was extremely exotic in its manner so

1012
00:35:02,310 --> 00:35:00,720
you know

1013
00:35:04,069 --> 00:35:02,320
yeah make of it what you will i guess

1014
00:35:06,550 --> 00:35:04,079
we'll definitely have a special show

1015
00:35:08,470 --> 00:35:06,560
just dedicated to randall shuma might

1016
00:35:09,349 --> 00:35:08,480
have you on for that

1017
00:35:10,390 --> 00:35:09,359
um

1018
00:35:12,390 --> 00:35:10,400
well

1019
00:35:14,470 --> 00:35:12,400
i kind of want to go back and for those

1020
00:35:16,630 --> 00:35:14,480
listeners who aren't familiar um they

1021
00:35:18,710 --> 00:35:16,640
can they can definitely read more about

1022
00:35:20,550 --> 00:35:18,720
mike's experience in your book the ufo

1023
00:35:22,390 --> 00:35:20,560
singularity um

1024
00:35:24,550 --> 00:35:22,400
great book one of the first i read on

1025
00:35:27,589 --> 00:35:24,560
the topic got me interested in your work

1026
00:35:31,750 --> 00:35:27,599
but uh what i want to sort of touch on

1027
00:35:35,030 --> 00:35:31,760
is that physiological aspect micah of

1028
00:35:36,550 --> 00:35:35,040
how a ufo event can physically alter

1029
00:35:38,710 --> 00:35:36,560
people and

1030
00:35:41,510 --> 00:35:38,720
one of my favorite cases is the cash

1031
00:35:44,390 --> 00:35:41,520
landrum case 1980 and i know that you

1032
00:35:46,870 --> 00:35:44,400
have some pretty interesting uh

1033
00:35:48,550 --> 00:35:46,880
not determinations but theories on what

1034
00:35:49,910 --> 00:35:48,560
we might have been dealing with in terms

1035
00:35:51,750 --> 00:35:49,920
of this case could you

1036
00:35:54,790 --> 00:35:51,760
maybe give us a brief recap of what this

1037
00:35:56,790 --> 00:35:54,800
case was and what you uh possibly

1038
00:35:58,710 --> 00:35:56,800
believe it could have been

1039
00:35:59,510 --> 00:35:58,720
yeah it's again it's very difficult to

1040
00:36:01,030 --> 00:35:59,520
kind of

1041
00:36:03,109 --> 00:36:01,040
come to a determination because as with

1042
00:36:05,109 --> 00:36:03,119
a lot of these ufo cases there was for

1043
00:36:06,630 --> 00:36:05,119
years the assertion that we had all

1044
00:36:08,150 --> 00:36:06,640
kinds of physical proof you know there

1045
00:36:10,069 --> 00:36:08,160
had been burns and scorch marks and

1046
00:36:12,630 --> 00:36:10,079
things on the road there near dayton uh

1047
00:36:15,430 --> 00:36:12,640
texas where this incident occurred

1048
00:36:17,430 --> 00:36:15,440
again a unique historical footnote is

1049
00:36:18,390 --> 00:36:17,440
that this cash landrum incident did

1050
00:36:20,069 --> 00:36:18,400
occur

1051
00:36:21,430 --> 00:36:20,079
i mean right around the same time as the

1052
00:36:24,069 --> 00:36:21,440
rental from forest

1053
00:36:25,589 --> 00:36:24,079
incident i mean yeah it was it was

1054
00:36:27,109 --> 00:36:25,599
literally right there around that that

1055
00:36:28,310 --> 00:36:27,119
same time within just a couple of days

1056
00:36:30,230 --> 00:36:28,320
so

1057
00:36:32,710 --> 00:36:30,240
that that's an interesting thing to me

1058
00:36:35,349 --> 00:36:32,720
because as we saw with the mike reese

1059
00:36:37,750 --> 00:36:35,359
experience that coincided with a like a

1060
00:36:39,670 --> 00:36:37,760
little flurry of what i consider to be

1061
00:36:41,190 --> 00:36:39,680
fairly good quality ufo incidents that

1062
00:36:43,109 --> 00:36:41,200
occurred there in you know the later

1063
00:36:44,390 --> 00:36:43,119
latter part of 1973 we had the same kind

1064
00:36:45,829 --> 00:36:44,400
of thing happening at the latter part of

1065
00:36:47,750 --> 00:36:45,839
1980

1066
00:36:49,270 --> 00:36:47,760
and uh i don't mean to say that that

1067
00:36:51,030 --> 00:36:49,280
means that there's a connection to be

1068
00:36:53,109 --> 00:36:51,040
made between what happened at uh

1069
00:36:55,430 --> 00:36:53,119
randallstrom forest and what was

1070
00:36:57,190 --> 00:36:55,440
observed by betty cash and vicki landrum

1071
00:36:59,430 --> 00:36:57,200
but again that is interesting that these

1072
00:37:02,310 --> 00:36:59,440
two happen around the same time their

1073
00:37:04,870 --> 00:37:02,320
experience was december 29 1980.

1074
00:37:07,109 --> 00:37:04,880
betty cash had been driving her car

1075
00:37:08,470 --> 00:37:07,119
it was an oldsmobile cutlass and joining

1076
00:37:11,030 --> 00:37:08,480
her in that vehicle had been vicki

1077
00:37:12,870 --> 00:37:11,040
landrum and then her grandson who was

1078
00:37:14,630 --> 00:37:12,880
seven years old at the time colby

1079
00:37:15,910 --> 00:37:14,640
colby has appeared on a number of ufo

1080
00:37:18,069 --> 00:37:15,920
programs and has been interviewed

1081
00:37:19,990 --> 00:37:18,079
because betty and vicky of course have

1082
00:37:21,510 --> 00:37:20,000
since passed away and betty had suffered

1083
00:37:22,630 --> 00:37:21,520
from the onset of

1084
00:37:24,550 --> 00:37:22,640
cancer

1085
00:37:26,390 --> 00:37:24,560
in her life and whether or not we can

1086
00:37:28,550 --> 00:37:26,400
directly attribute that to what unfolded

1087
00:37:29,349 --> 00:37:28,560
that night in 1980 we don't know but

1088
00:37:31,030 --> 00:37:29,359
again

1089
00:37:33,829 --> 00:37:31,040
the the narrative goes like this that

1090
00:37:35,829 --> 00:37:33,839
they were driving along this road uh

1091
00:37:36,870 --> 00:37:35,839
which was on its way into dayton texas

1092
00:37:38,790 --> 00:37:36,880
which is where they lived and they had

1093
00:37:39,829 --> 00:37:38,800
been going out to try and have dinner i

1094
00:37:40,950 --> 00:37:39,839
think and then they were going to play

1095
00:37:42,710 --> 00:37:40,960
bingo but it was right around the

1096
00:37:44,470 --> 00:37:42,720
christmas holidays there

1097
00:37:46,870 --> 00:37:44,480
between christmas and uh and new year

1098
00:37:49,990 --> 00:37:46,880
which is significant about this case

1099
00:37:51,750 --> 00:37:50,000
um because not only was that the reason

1100
00:37:53,910 --> 00:37:51,760
that the bingo places weren't open but

1101
00:37:54,790 --> 00:37:53,920
this also is the problem that we have

1102
00:37:56,870 --> 00:37:54,800
with

1103
00:37:59,030 --> 00:37:56,880
trying to understand you know a military

1104
00:38:00,310 --> 00:37:59,040
component as it relates to this case

1105
00:38:02,470 --> 00:38:00,320
they're driving along it shortly after

1106
00:38:04,310 --> 00:38:02,480
nine o'clock um

1107
00:38:07,109 --> 00:38:04,320
the road there that they were traveling

1108
00:38:08,790 --> 00:38:07,119
uh winds uh a good bit

1109
00:38:10,310 --> 00:38:08,800
and the important thing also to remember

1110
00:38:11,910 --> 00:38:10,320
is that they're kind of like the my

1111
00:38:13,990 --> 00:38:11,920
grease case again there were trees that

1112
00:38:15,510 --> 00:38:14,000
uh probably coniferous forest that line

1113
00:38:18,069 --> 00:38:15,520
both sides of the road

1114
00:38:20,069 --> 00:38:18,079
and they at some point see through the

1115
00:38:21,990 --> 00:38:20,079
trees in the distance ahead of them

1116
00:38:23,670 --> 00:38:22,000
uh a light

1117
00:38:25,990 --> 00:38:23,680
and this light

1118
00:38:27,990 --> 00:38:26,000
uh had been at about tree top level as

1119
00:38:29,270 --> 00:38:28,000
they get up closer to it this thing is

1120
00:38:30,150 --> 00:38:29,280
hovering essentially over the road and

1121
00:38:33,030 --> 00:38:30,160
they're able to pull up and they

1122
00:38:35,670 --> 00:38:33,040
actually stop the car betty cash decides

1123
00:38:37,750 --> 00:38:35,680
to get out of the vehicle now there are

1124
00:38:40,150 --> 00:38:37,760
descriptions of this object

1125
00:38:41,670 --> 00:38:40,160
that describe it as being diamond shaped

1126
00:38:45,190 --> 00:38:41,680
okay

1127
00:38:47,670 --> 00:38:45,200
but the initial descriptions

1128
00:38:49,990 --> 00:38:47,680
don't seem to necessarily explicitly say

1129
00:38:51,510 --> 00:38:50,000
that this thing was uh diamond shaped

1130
00:38:52,870 --> 00:38:51,520
they merely say that it was a bright

1131
00:38:54,550 --> 00:38:52,880
light hovering over the road in that if

1132
00:38:55,990 --> 00:38:54,560
anything the light was so bright that it

1133
00:38:58,150 --> 00:38:56,000
didn't allow for a clear discernment of

1134
00:38:59,349 --> 00:38:58,160
the shape but colby again seven years

1135
00:39:00,550 --> 00:38:59,359
old at the time had said that he

1136
00:39:02,790 --> 00:39:00,560
believed that the thing appeared to be

1137
00:39:04,630 --> 00:39:02,800
diamond shaped and later you begin to

1138
00:39:07,109 --> 00:39:04,640
see that the descriptions given by cash

1139
00:39:08,790 --> 00:39:07,119
and landrum uh begin to kind of match

1140
00:39:09,990 --> 00:39:08,800
that description that it seems to have

1141
00:39:11,670 --> 00:39:10,000
originated

1142
00:39:14,790 --> 00:39:11,680
with colby

1143
00:39:16,870 --> 00:39:14,800
yeah interesting i i did not know that

1144
00:39:18,470 --> 00:39:16,880
well yeah and see that's uh an important

1145
00:39:20,390 --> 00:39:18,480
point i think that we gotta

1146
00:39:21,510 --> 00:39:20,400
bring to mind here because uh the uh as

1147
00:39:23,829 --> 00:39:21,520
a matter of fact there's a really good

1148
00:39:26,230 --> 00:39:23,839
uh pod or not podcast but website that

1149
00:39:30,230 --> 00:39:26,240
i'd like to make reference to

1150
00:39:31,030 --> 00:39:30,240
uh the website is blueblurrylines.com

1151
00:39:33,589 --> 00:39:31,040
okay

1152
00:39:37,030 --> 00:39:33,599
and uh that website although it focuses

1153
00:39:38,470 --> 00:39:37,040
primarily on the uh cash landrum uh

1154
00:39:39,910 --> 00:39:38,480
situation i don't i don't think that

1155
00:39:41,910 --> 00:39:39,920
that's the only

1156
00:39:43,349 --> 00:39:41,920
uh case that it deals with and uh the

1157
00:39:44,950 --> 00:39:43,359
researcher of course who who does that

1158
00:39:45,829 --> 00:39:44,960
website kirk collins i've interviewed

1159
00:39:48,390 --> 00:39:45,839
him before he's one of the most

1160
00:39:50,390 --> 00:39:48,400
well-rounded researchers and has even to

1161
00:39:52,550 --> 00:39:50,400
a much greater degree than i have has

1162
00:39:53,990 --> 00:39:52,560
looked into the cash landrum incident um

1163
00:39:55,990 --> 00:39:54,000
so you know people should definitely

1164
00:39:58,310 --> 00:39:56,000
check out blueblurrylines.com and read

1165
00:40:01,109 --> 00:39:58,320
um some of kurt collins research great

1166
00:40:02,069 --> 00:40:01,119
stuff and uh in in the most recent post

1167
00:40:04,390 --> 00:40:02,079
by the way

1168
00:40:06,630 --> 00:40:04,400
uh was made on march 31st of this year

1169
00:40:08,710 --> 00:40:06,640
so it's well uh kept website and it's

1170
00:40:09,990 --> 00:40:08,720
also up to date so that said uh it was

1171
00:40:11,109 --> 00:40:10,000
kirk collins who had brought to my

1172
00:40:14,230 --> 00:40:11,119
attention

1173
00:40:16,069 --> 00:40:14,240
the fact that these early

1174
00:40:17,589 --> 00:40:16,079
descriptions of the object that was seen

1175
00:40:19,589 --> 00:40:17,599
there over the highway

1176
00:40:21,349 --> 00:40:19,599
and then the later description of this

1177
00:40:22,870 --> 00:40:21,359
this kind of a triangular shaped or

1178
00:40:24,630 --> 00:40:22,880
rather a diamond shaped craft you know

1179
00:40:26,390 --> 00:40:24,640
they don't necessarily jive that's a

1180
00:40:27,510 --> 00:40:26,400
common feature among a lot of these ufo

1181
00:40:29,829 --> 00:40:27,520
cases

1182
00:40:33,030 --> 00:40:29,839
again kenneth arnold initially described

1183
00:40:35,030 --> 00:40:33,040
objects that their their locomotion

1184
00:40:37,190 --> 00:40:35,040
reminded him of a of like a disc

1185
00:40:39,030 --> 00:40:37,200
skipping across the water a saucer or a

1186
00:40:40,310 --> 00:40:39,040
stone if you flip it and skip it across

1187
00:40:42,230 --> 00:40:40,320
the water and so the press started

1188
00:40:45,190 --> 00:40:42,240
calling these things flying saucers lo

1189
00:40:47,670 --> 00:40:45,200
and behold and then within a few months

1190
00:40:49,670 --> 00:40:47,680
and i'm not trying to say this to again

1191
00:40:51,750 --> 00:40:49,680
take away from what arnold saw because i

1192
00:40:55,030 --> 00:40:51,760
believe he probably did see something

1193
00:40:57,109 --> 00:40:55,040
several somethings in fact but uh after

1194
00:40:58,710 --> 00:40:57,119
a few months he began to also say that

1195
00:41:00,150 --> 00:40:58,720
the objects may have been disc shaped

1196
00:41:01,750 --> 00:41:00,160
also but at least one of them appeared

1197
00:41:04,230 --> 00:41:01,760
to have kind of a flying wing appearance

1198
00:41:05,349 --> 00:41:04,240
so he kind of updated his memory and i

1199
00:41:07,270 --> 00:41:05,359
think that with the cash landrum

1200
00:41:08,550 --> 00:41:07,280
incident that may have happened also but

1201
00:41:10,150 --> 00:41:08,560
so again coming back to the night of the

1202
00:41:11,990 --> 00:41:10,160
incident we have this light hovering

1203
00:41:13,190 --> 00:41:12,000
over the highway we can at very least

1204
00:41:15,109 --> 00:41:13,200
agree to say that there was definitely

1205
00:41:17,349 --> 00:41:15,119
something producing illumination

1206
00:41:18,630 --> 00:41:17,359
uh betty got out of the car she stood

1207
00:41:20,710 --> 00:41:18,640
and she watched it for a number of

1208
00:41:22,470 --> 00:41:20,720
minutes when she tried to get back into

1209
00:41:24,150 --> 00:41:22,480
the vehicle she said that the metal

1210
00:41:25,910 --> 00:41:24,160
handle of the door burned her hand and

1211
00:41:27,990 --> 00:41:25,920
she had to use the

1212
00:41:29,349 --> 00:41:28,000
part of her coat to be able to open it

1213
00:41:30,870 --> 00:41:29,359
and she said that despite the fact that

1214
00:41:32,710 --> 00:41:30,880
it was late december

1215
00:41:34,150 --> 00:41:32,720
and even as far south as texas it can

1216
00:41:36,150 --> 00:41:34,160
get chilly down there especially at

1217
00:41:37,589 --> 00:41:36,160
night in december but

1218
00:41:38,870 --> 00:41:37,599
she said that the heat produced by this

1219
00:41:40,230 --> 00:41:38,880
thing was enough such that she was she

1220
00:41:41,670 --> 00:41:40,240
could have stood out there i mean it was

1221
00:41:43,270 --> 00:41:41,680
hot she said it felt like a hot humid

1222
00:41:44,950 --> 00:41:43,280
summer day that's how much he's being

1223
00:41:45,990 --> 00:41:44,960
produced she tries to get back into the

1224
00:41:48,230 --> 00:41:46,000
vehicle

1225
00:41:50,870 --> 00:41:48,240
and they observe as the object begins to

1226
00:41:53,270 --> 00:41:50,880
kind of move away and toward the forest

1227
00:41:56,069 --> 00:41:53,280
uh what appeared to be several uh

1228
00:41:57,910 --> 00:41:56,079
chinook helicopters that kind of

1229
00:41:59,829 --> 00:41:57,920
it gives the impression the way that

1230
00:42:01,349 --> 00:41:59,839
that the circumstances were described

1231
00:42:03,030 --> 00:42:01,359
that they were escorting the object out

1232
00:42:03,829 --> 00:42:03,040
of the area

1233
00:42:05,270 --> 00:42:03,839
um

1234
00:42:08,309 --> 00:42:05,280
betty having gotten out of the car

1235
00:42:10,390 --> 00:42:08,319
within the next 24 to 48 hours began to

1236
00:42:12,790 --> 00:42:10,400
suffer what appeared to be symptoms

1237
00:42:14,630 --> 00:42:12,800
consistent with exposure to non-ionizing

1238
00:42:16,150 --> 00:42:14,640
radiation now there are a variety of

1239
00:42:18,069 --> 00:42:16,160
different ways that this might happen or

1240
00:42:19,190 --> 00:42:18,079
what different varieties this could be

1241
00:42:20,550 --> 00:42:19,200
without getting into the science of

1242
00:42:22,069 --> 00:42:20,560
non-ionizing radiation and what

1243
00:42:23,750 --> 00:42:22,079
different varieties there are and what

1244
00:42:25,750 --> 00:42:23,760
they can do

1245
00:42:27,270 --> 00:42:25,760
this kind of an exposure to radiation

1246
00:42:30,069 --> 00:42:27,280
could certainly cause

1247
00:42:31,589 --> 00:42:30,079
such things as perhaps a sun's like a

1248
00:42:32,870 --> 00:42:31,599
sunburn-like

1249
00:42:35,829 --> 00:42:32,880
phenomena

1250
00:42:38,230 --> 00:42:35,839
or effect on the skin and also could uh

1251
00:42:40,069 --> 00:42:38,240
you know theoretically could probably

1252
00:42:42,550 --> 00:42:40,079
also cause a certain sickness like

1253
00:42:44,790 --> 00:42:42,560
radiation poisoning whatever the case

1254
00:42:47,349 --> 00:42:44,800
betty seemed to suggest seem to suffer

1255
00:42:48,790 --> 00:42:47,359
these effects um vicki landrum and colby

1256
00:42:50,950 --> 00:42:48,800
to a lesser degree and remember they

1257
00:42:52,870 --> 00:42:50,960
didn't get out of the vehicle right

1258
00:42:54,710 --> 00:42:52,880
so with regard to this case i mean

1259
00:42:56,550 --> 00:42:54,720
exactly what was seen they went to the

1260
00:42:58,230 --> 00:42:56,560
air force they had tried to seek you

1261
00:43:00,790 --> 00:42:58,240
know help for their medical uh

1262
00:43:02,390 --> 00:43:00,800
conditions especially betty cash

1263
00:43:03,750 --> 00:43:02,400
the problem was that they said of course

1264
00:43:05,589 --> 00:43:03,760
at that time during the holidays that

1265
00:43:07,910 --> 00:43:05,599
there had been no known military

1266
00:43:09,510 --> 00:43:07,920
operations occurring and none of their

1267
00:43:11,190 --> 00:43:09,520
chinooks none of those helicopters

1268
00:43:12,390 --> 00:43:11,200
should have been out

1269
00:43:13,910 --> 00:43:12,400
and flying now

1270
00:43:15,589 --> 00:43:13,920
there are two ways we can interpret that

1271
00:43:17,109 --> 00:43:15,599
this is uh this means that there was

1272
00:43:18,790 --> 00:43:17,119
some sort of military operation that

1273
00:43:19,990 --> 00:43:18,800
those regional facilities could not

1274
00:43:21,750 --> 00:43:20,000
account for

1275
00:43:24,470 --> 00:43:21,760
uh and therefore perhaps this had

1276
00:43:25,910 --> 00:43:24,480
nothing to do with that region

1277
00:43:27,589 --> 00:43:25,920
although again that's the problem that

1278
00:43:29,589 --> 00:43:27,599
many researchers over the years have had

1279
00:43:31,910 --> 00:43:29,599
the biggest perhaps is if there were

1280
00:43:33,829 --> 00:43:31,920
these chinook helicopters not only seen

1281
00:43:36,550 --> 00:43:33,839
by cash and landrum but also there had

1282
00:43:38,630 --> 00:43:36,560
been i think a former um i think it was

1283
00:43:40,790 --> 00:43:38,640
a former law enforcement officer

1284
00:43:42,150 --> 00:43:40,800
or very least off duty who along with

1285
00:43:43,589 --> 00:43:42,160
his wife driving along they said that

1286
00:43:44,870 --> 00:43:43,599
they didn't see any kind of anomalous

1287
00:43:46,790 --> 00:43:44,880
looking lighter aircraft but they

1288
00:43:47,750 --> 00:43:46,800
certainly saw helicopters moving

1289
00:43:49,349 --> 00:43:47,760
together

1290
00:43:50,870 --> 00:43:49,359
so there were there were people who had

1291
00:43:52,309 --> 00:43:50,880
said that they'd seen these helicopters

1292
00:43:53,589 --> 00:43:52,319
that night apart from cash and lander

1293
00:43:54,790 --> 00:43:53,599
but nobody can account for where they

1294
00:43:57,349 --> 00:43:54,800
came from that's one of the biggest

1295
00:43:59,030 --> 00:43:57,359
problems with the case

1296
00:44:01,270 --> 00:43:59,040
so the other way that we might interpret

1297
00:44:03,030 --> 00:44:01,280
this is and is it fair to ask was there

1298
00:44:04,790 --> 00:44:03,040
something that was going on that the

1299
00:44:06,870 --> 00:44:04,800
military did not want to release and

1300
00:44:08,390 --> 00:44:06,880
they have not released information about

1301
00:44:10,309 --> 00:44:08,400
an actual valid operation that was

1302
00:44:11,829 --> 00:44:10,319
underway that night again cash and

1303
00:44:13,270 --> 00:44:11,839
landrum when they first saw this thing

1304
00:44:15,270 --> 00:44:13,280
they had likened it in this

1305
00:44:16,230 --> 00:44:15,280
eschatological fashion to being like the

1306
00:44:17,270 --> 00:44:16,240
end of the world they said we weren't

1307
00:44:18,470 --> 00:44:17,280
sure what was going on there's this

1308
00:44:20,309 --> 00:44:18,480
bright light we thought maybe the world

1309
00:44:22,790 --> 00:44:20,319
was ending right

1310
00:44:24,309 --> 00:44:22,800
later on i think betty cash had

1311
00:44:25,670 --> 00:44:24,319
had phrased it differently and said you

1312
00:44:27,190 --> 00:44:25,680
know we we don't know that it was

1313
00:44:28,870 --> 00:44:27,200
necessarily aliens or something from

1314
00:44:30,870 --> 00:44:28,880
another planet but i mean

1315
00:44:32,790 --> 00:44:30,880
whatever this was i mean you know we'd

1316
00:44:35,030 --> 00:44:32,800
like to know we'd like answers because

1317
00:44:36,870 --> 00:44:35,040
you know we've been affected by it

1318
00:44:38,550 --> 00:44:36,880
mentally perhaps but more obviously

1319
00:44:40,550 --> 00:44:38,560
physically too

1320
00:44:41,670 --> 00:44:40,560
and this resulted in a lawsuit am i

1321
00:44:43,190 --> 00:44:41,680
correct

1322
00:44:45,109 --> 00:44:43,200
yeah that's right i think that this is

1323
00:44:48,150 --> 00:44:45,119
uh one of these famous ufo instances

1324
00:44:50,309 --> 00:44:48,160
where uh the the people who had claimed

1325
00:44:52,710 --> 00:44:50,319
damages from this yeah it did absolutely

1326
00:44:54,870 --> 00:44:52,720
result in a in a lawsuit now that's the

1327
00:44:56,870 --> 00:44:54,880
funny thing is that again

1328
00:44:59,109 --> 00:44:56,880
i uh

1329
00:45:00,710 --> 00:44:59,119
i'm really troubled by the mentality of

1330
00:45:02,550 --> 00:45:00,720
skeptics that would assert such things

1331
00:45:05,030 --> 00:45:02,560
as the following and i've actually seen

1332
00:45:06,790 --> 00:45:05,040
this now i want to say robert schaefer

1333
00:45:09,270 --> 00:45:06,800
did not say this himself

1334
00:45:11,109 --> 00:45:09,280
he he did an article on his website and

1335
00:45:12,550 --> 00:45:11,119
i like robert okay he

1336
00:45:13,670 --> 00:45:12,560
he was there that same year you and i

1337
00:45:15,910 --> 00:45:13,680
were there at the international ufo

1338
00:45:18,150 --> 00:45:15,920
congress and he wrote a

1339
00:45:20,390 --> 00:45:18,160
fairly unfriendly blog post about uh

1340
00:45:21,910 --> 00:45:20,400
about my lecture and so i just ran up to

1341
00:45:24,710 --> 00:45:21,920
him and i said hey listen you know i'm

1342
00:45:26,390 --> 00:45:24,720
not what you made me out to be

1343
00:45:28,150 --> 00:45:26,400
and if i have an opportunity to reach

1344
00:45:29,670 --> 00:45:28,160
out and you know directly engage

1345
00:45:31,670 --> 00:45:29,680
especially at an event

1346
00:45:33,190 --> 00:45:31,680
you know a skeptic and talk with them we

1347
00:45:35,430 --> 00:45:33,200
often find that we have a lot more in

1348
00:45:37,190 --> 00:45:35,440
common than we differ on so this is no

1349
00:45:39,910 --> 00:45:37,200
way me attacking bob schaefer but

1350
00:45:42,230 --> 00:45:39,920
somebody of of uh skeptical ilk

1351
00:45:44,630 --> 00:45:42,240
commenting on a blog post he did at his

1352
00:45:46,390 --> 00:45:44,640
website bad ufos in relation to this

1353
00:45:48,550 --> 00:45:46,400
case had said

1354
00:45:50,950 --> 00:45:48,560
that betty cash had probably laid under

1355
00:45:53,829 --> 00:45:50,960
a heat lamp to achieve the burned

1356
00:45:56,150 --> 00:45:53,839
appearance and then drink drank toxic uh

1357
00:45:58,870 --> 00:45:56,160
chemicals household cleaners and things

1358
00:46:00,630 --> 00:45:58,880
nearly killing herself so as to fake the

1359
00:46:02,069 --> 00:46:00,640
effects of radiation poisoning because

1360
00:46:05,030 --> 00:46:02,079
they were trying to extort money out of

1361
00:46:08,950 --> 00:46:07,030
okay that's one theory

1362
00:46:10,470 --> 00:46:08,960
now that's more likely you see than them

1363
00:46:12,069 --> 00:46:10,480
seeing a ufo because we have no evidence

1364
00:46:14,390 --> 00:46:12,079
of aliens

1365
00:46:15,990 --> 00:46:14,400
and therefore it's more likely that this

1366
00:46:18,069 --> 00:46:16,000
was just a you know a hoax a heist they

1367
00:46:19,910 --> 00:46:18,079
were just trying to get money

1368
00:46:22,550 --> 00:46:19,920
the skeptical mind not all skeptics do

1369
00:46:24,710 --> 00:46:22,560
this by the way no i'm very skeptical i

1370
00:46:26,550 --> 00:46:24,720
call myself a skeptic

1371
00:46:29,670 --> 00:46:26,560
but i don't go

1372
00:46:31,750 --> 00:46:29,680
fabricating cockamamie stories

1373
00:46:33,430 --> 00:46:31,760
that offer a quote-unquote believable

1374
00:46:34,790 --> 00:46:33,440
explanation just to try and detract from

1375
00:46:36,230 --> 00:46:34,800
the idea that something out of the

1376
00:46:38,390 --> 00:46:36,240
ordinary was observed and i don't think

1377
00:46:39,910 --> 00:46:38,400
that what was observed was necessarily

1378
00:46:41,030 --> 00:46:39,920
all that out of the ordinary again if

1379
00:46:42,950 --> 00:46:41,040
you want my

1380
00:46:44,150 --> 00:46:42,960
speculative opinion on what was observed

1381
00:46:46,550 --> 00:46:44,160
it was probably something along the

1382
00:46:47,990 --> 00:46:46,560
lines of a high-yield thermal emission

1383
00:46:49,829 --> 00:46:48,000
device possibly something and there are

1384
00:46:52,309 --> 00:46:49,839
patents that exist for you know uh for

1385
00:46:54,069 --> 00:46:52,319
uh devices like this although the few

1386
00:46:55,589 --> 00:46:54,079
that i've observed are probably

1387
00:46:58,230 --> 00:46:55,599
again just a handful of those which

1388
00:46:59,990 --> 00:46:58,240
might be uh perhaps not only out there

1389
00:47:02,550 --> 00:47:00,000
but also some of which may be in use and

1390
00:47:03,750 --> 00:47:02,560
have been uh tested by military agencies

1391
00:47:05,430 --> 00:47:03,760
why they were doing this test right

1392
00:47:07,109 --> 00:47:05,440
around christmas

1393
00:47:09,349 --> 00:47:07,119
that's anybody's guess and again there

1394
00:47:10,790 --> 00:47:09,359
is no documentation that supports that

1395
00:47:12,470 --> 00:47:10,800
theory so that's why i have to say this

1396
00:47:14,470 --> 00:47:12,480
is speculative because again people said

1397
00:47:15,990 --> 00:47:14,480
that they saw chinooks in the air that

1398
00:47:17,910 --> 00:47:16,000
that night that doesn't jive with the

1399
00:47:19,910 --> 00:47:17,920
official records we've never been able

1400
00:47:22,470 --> 00:47:19,920
to really uh to my knowledge at least uh

1401
00:47:24,390 --> 00:47:22,480
reconcile those two issues but there are

1402
00:47:26,630 --> 00:47:24,400
such things uh as as patents that

1403
00:47:27,829 --> 00:47:26,640
describe a thermal emission device and i

1404
00:47:29,829 --> 00:47:27,839
wrote a blog about this a while back

1405
00:47:31,430 --> 00:47:29,839
that suggests that an object perhaps

1406
00:47:33,030 --> 00:47:31,440
that would be used for the very quick

1407
00:47:34,230 --> 00:47:33,040
inflation of a large hot air balloon or

1408
00:47:36,470 --> 00:47:34,240
something like that

1409
00:47:38,470 --> 00:47:36,480
might be useful when i compared notes

1410
00:47:39,829 --> 00:47:38,480
with kirk collins about that

1411
00:47:41,829 --> 00:47:39,839
he said well that's very interesting

1412
00:47:44,950 --> 00:47:41,839
michael because he said in those initial

1413
00:47:46,870 --> 00:47:44,960
descriptions given by cash and landrum

1414
00:47:48,630 --> 00:47:46,880
rather than the the the diamond shape

1415
00:47:50,550 --> 00:47:48,640
that colby kind of described in that

1416
00:47:52,550 --> 00:47:50,560
they later started talking about when

1417
00:47:54,230 --> 00:47:52,560
they were asked about that

1418
00:47:55,750 --> 00:47:54,240
and what it looked like

1419
00:47:57,349 --> 00:47:55,760
they said it was if anything

1420
00:47:58,790 --> 00:47:57,359
balloon-like

1421
00:48:01,270 --> 00:47:58,800
oh okay

1422
00:48:02,710 --> 00:48:01,280
so to my way of thinking i i wondered if

1423
00:48:05,349 --> 00:48:02,720
there if there might not have been

1424
00:48:09,030 --> 00:48:05,359
something uh that was again

1425
00:48:11,030 --> 00:48:09,040
capable of a lot of energetic output

1426
00:48:12,870 --> 00:48:11,040
uh it would seem to suggest that

1427
00:48:15,430 --> 00:48:12,880
whatever the the source of this energy

1428
00:48:17,910 --> 00:48:15,440
was capable of causing these burns uh

1429
00:48:20,230 --> 00:48:17,920
and and the uh the ensuing radiation

1430
00:48:21,750 --> 00:48:20,240
sickness-like

1431
00:48:23,430 --> 00:48:21,760
issues but then there have been other

1432
00:48:25,030 --> 00:48:23,440
researchers like brad sparks who had

1433
00:48:26,870 --> 00:48:25,040
suggested that because there was no

1434
00:48:29,030 --> 00:48:26,880
direct evidence of radiation found in

1435
00:48:30,950 --> 00:48:29,040
the environment in the general locality

1436
00:48:32,549 --> 00:48:30,960
where that incident took place he said

1437
00:48:33,910 --> 00:48:32,559
he couldn't conceive of that sickness

1438
00:48:35,670 --> 00:48:33,920
being induced by anything but something

1439
00:48:37,190 --> 00:48:35,680
chemical so

1440
00:48:38,790 --> 00:48:37,200
you know again i think that part of the

1441
00:48:42,309 --> 00:48:38,800
problem that we're we're looking at here

1442
00:48:44,870 --> 00:48:42,319
is what caused uh betty cash and also

1443
00:48:46,470 --> 00:48:44,880
the landrums to fall ill is there any

1444
00:48:48,470 --> 00:48:46,480
evidence that that really was something

1445
00:48:49,589 --> 00:48:48,480
as in terms of a source of radiation

1446
00:48:51,589 --> 00:48:49,599
could it have been something else that

1447
00:48:53,349 --> 00:48:51,599
would have caused similar effects and

1448
00:48:55,270 --> 00:48:53,359
would that rule out the nuclear

1449
00:48:56,549 --> 00:48:55,280
component altogether so those are some

1450
00:48:57,829 --> 00:48:56,559
of the issues that we face with that

1451
00:49:00,069 --> 00:48:57,839
case but again it just it really

1452
00:49:01,750 --> 00:49:00,079
infuriates me ryan when people say

1453
00:49:03,510 --> 00:49:01,760
oh well you know they did this to

1454
00:49:05,990 --> 00:49:03,520
themselves they were trying to get money

1455
00:49:07,670 --> 00:49:06,000
right i mean you and i both know there's

1456
00:49:10,549 --> 00:49:07,680
very little money to be had as a

1457
00:49:12,870 --> 00:49:10,559
researcher i i i would assume there's

1458
00:49:15,670 --> 00:49:12,880
not much to be had being an experiencer

1459
00:49:17,109 --> 00:49:15,680
either you have everything to lose in my

1460
00:49:19,430 --> 00:49:17,119
opinion you know

1461
00:49:21,910 --> 00:49:19,440
maybe you get lucky you strike a movie

1462
00:49:25,030 --> 00:49:21,920
deal or something but i mean to

1463
00:49:27,589 --> 00:49:25,040
risk your entire

1464
00:49:28,950 --> 00:49:27,599
mortality to do this uh just seems a

1465
00:49:32,870 --> 00:49:28,960
little

1466
00:49:35,349 --> 00:49:32,880
mean we don't have either of these

1467
00:49:37,430 --> 00:49:35,359
individuals here any longer as this is

1468
00:49:39,510 --> 00:49:37,440
often the case with many ufo

1469
00:49:42,150 --> 00:49:39,520
incidents to tell us their side of the

1470
00:49:44,470 --> 00:49:42,160
story anymore we have kobe and

1471
00:49:46,630 --> 00:49:44,480
that's about it so you know

1472
00:49:48,790 --> 00:49:46,640
it will go down in the annals of ufo

1473
00:49:51,190 --> 00:49:48,800
history is one of the more uh compelling

1474
00:49:53,990 --> 00:49:51,200
cases for sure but will we ever find an

1475
00:49:55,030 --> 00:49:54,000
answer uh frustratingly we often never

1476
00:49:56,470 --> 00:49:55,040
do

1477
00:49:58,630 --> 00:49:56,480
and in this case we probably won't

1478
00:50:00,390 --> 00:49:58,640
either but you know again talking about

1479
00:50:03,190 --> 00:50:00,400
people who profit from

1480
00:50:05,030 --> 00:50:03,200
ufology i mean i will acknowledge my own

1481
00:50:08,230 --> 00:50:05,040
yeah you know to an extent there's i

1482
00:50:10,549 --> 00:50:08,240
have a certain degree of distaste

1483
00:50:12,309 --> 00:50:10,559
for ufo events and this coming from a

1484
00:50:14,069 --> 00:50:12,319
person who in the past has coordinated

1485
00:50:16,950 --> 00:50:14,079
some fairly large events myself let's

1486
00:50:18,549 --> 00:50:16,960
not forget uh i haven't done any of that

1487
00:50:20,309 --> 00:50:18,559
in recent years because it's more

1488
00:50:22,870 --> 00:50:20,319
trouble usually than it's worth and also

1489
00:50:25,430 --> 00:50:22,880
my ideology has changed a good bit too i

1490
00:50:26,870 --> 00:50:25,440
used to kind of think it was more

1491
00:50:28,549 --> 00:50:26,880
uh like oh let's just get a bunch of

1492
00:50:29,589 --> 00:50:28,559
people who we may not necessarily agree

1493
00:50:31,030 --> 00:50:29,599
with and just get them all together

1494
00:50:32,790 --> 00:50:31,040
because you know for

1495
00:50:35,109 --> 00:50:32,800
both educative and also for entertaining

1496
00:50:37,349 --> 00:50:35,119
purposes this will be of merit and and

1497
00:50:38,630 --> 00:50:37,359
then i i get the kind of um

1498
00:50:39,990 --> 00:50:38,640
feedback from people i couldn't believe

1499
00:50:41,430 --> 00:50:40,000
that you would associate with eric von

1500
00:50:44,230 --> 00:50:41,440
daniken or that you would associate with

1501
00:50:45,910 --> 00:50:44,240
this person or that person to me

1502
00:50:47,270 --> 00:50:45,920
you know seeing something that i would

1503
00:50:48,870 --> 00:50:47,280
consider for instance ryan to be

1504
00:50:49,750 --> 00:50:48,880
complete bunk

1505
00:50:51,349 --> 00:50:49,760
you know

1506
00:50:52,549 --> 00:50:51,359
i can still find that subject

1507
00:50:54,870 --> 00:50:52,559
interesting

1508
00:50:56,790 --> 00:50:54,880
but when i hear somebody discussing a

1509
00:50:59,430 --> 00:50:56,800
very fringe claim or something very far

1510
00:51:01,430 --> 00:50:59,440
out it just makes me want to investigate

1511
00:51:03,750 --> 00:51:01,440
those claims more skeptically myself it

1512
00:51:05,670 --> 00:51:03,760
doesn't oh wow i'm suddenly brainwashed

1513
00:51:07,270 --> 00:51:05,680
and i believe that you know humankind

1514
00:51:09,270 --> 00:51:07,280
was seated by aliens that visited back

1515
00:51:10,470 --> 00:51:09,280
in you know you know the dawn of

1516
00:51:12,390 --> 00:51:10,480
civilization

1517
00:51:14,470 --> 00:51:12,400
whatever the case you know again i think

1518
00:51:16,470 --> 00:51:14,480
it's fine to have an interest in things

1519
00:51:18,069 --> 00:51:16,480
that you may not also believe in because

1520
00:51:19,990 --> 00:51:18,079
culturally those things nonetheless are

1521
00:51:22,150 --> 00:51:20,000
significant now that said

1522
00:51:23,910 --> 00:51:22,160
there are issues i definitely have with

1523
00:51:26,230 --> 00:51:23,920
like the culture not the culture i'm

1524
00:51:28,069 --> 00:51:26,240
sorry the industry will say of ufology

1525
00:51:30,069 --> 00:51:28,079
okay let's let's put on a great big

1526
00:51:31,589 --> 00:51:30,079
event let's sell a bunch of books let's

1527
00:51:33,109 --> 00:51:31,599
sell a bunch of dvds let's make a lot of

1528
00:51:34,470 --> 00:51:33,119
money but then again

1529
00:51:35,910 --> 00:51:34,480
having been on that side of things you

1530
00:51:37,349 --> 00:51:35,920
don't usually make a lot of money and

1531
00:51:38,950 --> 00:51:37,359
what do people go to these events for

1532
00:51:41,109 --> 00:51:38,960
well they're interested in the subject

1533
00:51:43,589 --> 00:51:41,119
is it wrong or people

1534
00:51:46,309 --> 00:51:43,599
or should people be disallowed

1535
00:51:47,990 --> 00:51:46,319
to have an interest in this subject just

1536
00:51:49,349 --> 00:51:48,000
because some people are naysayers and

1537
00:51:51,750 --> 00:51:49,359
think that there's nothing to ufology i

1538
00:51:53,190 --> 00:51:51,760
think when you really break it down

1539
00:51:54,470 --> 00:51:53,200
on those terms you start seeing how

1540
00:51:56,549 --> 00:51:54,480
absurd it is

1541
00:51:57,829 --> 00:51:56,559
the efforts to try and discredit people

1542
00:52:00,230 --> 00:51:57,839
like for instance there's a great

1543
00:52:02,309 --> 00:52:00,240
example travis walton travis walton has

1544
00:52:04,150 --> 00:52:02,319
sold books he does speaking engagements

1545
00:52:05,910 --> 00:52:04,160
he's often paid for them but if you sit

1546
00:52:07,990 --> 00:52:05,920
down and you talk to that guy he is just

1547
00:52:10,390 --> 00:52:08,000
as interested in this stuff as uri he's

1548
00:52:12,309 --> 00:52:10,400
extremely approachable very friendly no

1549
00:52:14,150 --> 00:52:12,319
i don't think he's a con man

1550
00:52:15,589 --> 00:52:14,160
you know and like so many people who go

1551
00:52:17,829 --> 00:52:15,599
to these kind of events travis is

1552
00:52:19,349 --> 00:52:17,839
looking for answers uh philip class of

1553
00:52:21,589 --> 00:52:19,359
course was convinced that well travis

1554
00:52:23,030 --> 00:52:21,599
was just trying to make money everybody

1555
00:52:24,630 --> 00:52:23,040
in his view was just trying to make

1556
00:52:26,069 --> 00:52:24,640
money let's see how we can pull the wool

1557
00:52:27,990 --> 00:52:26,079
over people's eyes and win the national

1558
00:52:29,829 --> 00:52:28,000
enquirer uh you know five thousand

1559
00:52:30,950 --> 00:52:29,839
dollar ufo championship or whatever i

1560
00:52:32,470 --> 00:52:30,960
mean

1561
00:52:34,549 --> 00:52:32,480
i don't think that every person who says

1562
00:52:36,950 --> 00:52:34,559
that they see something unusual is just

1563
00:52:39,270 --> 00:52:36,960
making stuff up for money and i and like

1564
00:52:42,150 --> 00:52:39,280
you correctly said there are far better

1565
00:52:44,230 --> 00:52:42,160
ways to become uh you know not only

1566
00:52:45,430 --> 00:52:44,240
famous or to make money but to make lots

1567
00:52:47,589 --> 00:52:45,440
more money

1568
00:52:49,430 --> 00:52:47,599
than faking a ufo incident

1569
00:52:51,109 --> 00:52:49,440
absolutely you know and i'm glad you

1570
00:52:52,150 --> 00:52:51,119
brought that up man because

1571
00:52:54,630 --> 00:52:52,160
you know

1572
00:52:57,430 --> 00:52:54,640
yes there are so many people who come to

1573
00:53:01,750 --> 00:52:57,440
these events uh to have conversations to

1574
00:53:04,069 --> 00:53:01,760
have debate to uh or to solidify their

1575
00:53:04,870 --> 00:53:04,079
own beliefs and while this can be you

1576
00:53:06,870 --> 00:53:04,880
know

1577
00:53:09,430 --> 00:53:06,880
detrimental at times it can also be

1578
00:53:11,910 --> 00:53:09,440
revelatory for some individuals but what

1579
00:53:14,950 --> 00:53:11,920
i think a good thing you brought up is

1580
00:53:17,990 --> 00:53:14,960
that the the the skeptical side of it uh

1581
00:53:20,950 --> 00:53:18,000
we often look at skeptics as the enemy

1582
00:53:22,870 --> 00:53:20,960
um and the further i've gotten into this

1583
00:53:25,750 --> 00:53:22,880
topic as i'm sure you have

1584
00:53:29,589 --> 00:53:25,760
the more i realize that skepticism is

1585
00:53:32,309 --> 00:53:29,599
not only essential it's it's healthy and

1586
00:53:33,829 --> 00:53:32,319
it actually helps your research i mean

1587
00:53:36,150 --> 00:53:33,839
if we were just constantly going down

1588
00:53:39,030 --> 00:53:36,160
rabbit holes of uh you know witness

1589
00:53:43,030 --> 00:53:39,040
testimony and uh you know the more of a

1590
00:53:45,270 --> 00:53:43,040
religious side of just belief uh

1591
00:53:47,030 --> 00:53:45,280
where is that going to get us

1592
00:53:49,750 --> 00:53:47,040
so i'm very happy to hear you bring up

1593
00:53:51,030 --> 00:53:49,760
the idea of skepticism um

1594
00:53:53,030 --> 00:53:51,040
and we'll get into that a little bit

1595
00:53:54,549 --> 00:53:53,040
later in terms of uh

1596
00:53:57,349 --> 00:53:54,559
a certain book that you brought to my

1597
00:54:00,069 --> 00:53:57,359
attention uh but there is one more case

1598
00:54:01,750 --> 00:54:00,079
i can't not talk about and this is one

1599
00:54:03,430 --> 00:54:01,760
you and i have talked about and one i

1600
00:54:05,510 --> 00:54:03,440
heard about on your podcast actually

1601
00:54:07,510 --> 00:54:05,520
recently um and that's the case of

1602
00:54:08,790 --> 00:54:07,520
frederick valentich and

1603
00:54:13,670 --> 00:54:08,800
i

1604
00:54:16,150 --> 00:54:13,680
show on the travel channel recently and

1605
00:54:18,710 --> 00:54:16,160
in doing that my research came from a

1606
00:54:21,190 --> 00:54:18,720
your podcast b uh the glory of the

1607
00:54:23,589 --> 00:54:21,200
internet and uh my new york public

1608
00:54:25,589 --> 00:54:23,599
library here um could you sort of run us

1609
00:54:27,829 --> 00:54:25,599
through this extremely compelling case

1610
00:54:29,990 --> 00:54:27,839
of a pilot who uh

1611
00:54:30,950 --> 00:54:30,000
possibly saw something of unearthly

1612
00:54:32,230 --> 00:54:30,960
origin

1613
00:54:33,750 --> 00:54:32,240
yeah absolutely and by the way

1614
00:54:35,190 --> 00:54:33,760
congratulations and glad to hear that

1615
00:54:36,870 --> 00:54:35,200
you've been talking about this on

1616
00:54:39,829 --> 00:54:36,880
television because again it's a it's a

1617
00:54:41,829 --> 00:54:39,839
case that's near and dear to my heart um

1618
00:54:43,270 --> 00:54:41,839
i will warn people it's important not to

1619
00:54:45,589 --> 00:54:43,280
allow yourself to become emotionally

1620
00:54:46,470 --> 00:54:45,599
attached to your work although

1621
00:54:48,870 --> 00:54:46,480
often

1622
00:54:50,230 --> 00:54:48,880
it does happen and so i kind of think

1623
00:54:51,349 --> 00:54:50,240
that you know you have to be able to use

1624
00:54:52,950 --> 00:54:51,359
your

1625
00:54:54,230 --> 00:54:52,960
i liken it to

1626
00:54:56,230 --> 00:54:54,240
a hard drive that has separate

1627
00:54:58,230 --> 00:54:56,240
partitions and each partition can have a

1628
00:55:00,150 --> 00:54:58,240
different operating system uh there is

1629
00:55:02,790 --> 00:55:00,160
for instance my rational cold hard

1630
00:55:05,109 --> 00:55:02,800
logical mind and then there is my mind

1631
00:55:08,150 --> 00:55:05,119
that is open to the spiritual you know

1632
00:55:09,990 --> 00:55:08,160
and and those things unseen yet felt

1633
00:55:11,750 --> 00:55:10,000
in the rarest of instances of the human

1634
00:55:13,510 --> 00:55:11,760
experience and i think that you know

1635
00:55:15,670 --> 00:55:13,520
those things don't have to necessarily

1636
00:55:17,829 --> 00:55:15,680
conflict with each other and these days

1637
00:55:20,549 --> 00:55:17,839
this attitude is simply that oh well you

1638
00:55:22,230 --> 00:55:20,559
know we have to say you know black is

1639
00:55:23,510 --> 00:55:22,240
black and white is white day is day

1640
00:55:25,990 --> 00:55:23,520
night is night

1641
00:55:27,510 --> 00:55:26,000
everything is just so two-dimensional

1642
00:55:29,109 --> 00:55:27,520
and i don't think that that does justice

1643
00:55:31,670 --> 00:55:29,119
to the complexity of human thought and

1644
00:55:34,309 --> 00:55:31,680
experience okay that said

1645
00:55:37,030 --> 00:55:34,319
um i don't look at the valentich

1646
00:55:39,990 --> 00:55:37,040
disappearance as a uh open and shut

1647
00:55:41,670 --> 00:55:40,000
black and white kind of ufo case

1648
00:55:43,430 --> 00:55:41,680
and i also this is one of these

1649
00:55:45,910 --> 00:55:43,440
instances where my own personal

1650
00:55:47,670 --> 00:55:45,920
connections to individuals directly

1651
00:55:48,950 --> 00:55:47,680
involved with the case

1652
00:55:50,630 --> 00:55:48,960
not the pilot obviously because he

1653
00:55:53,430 --> 00:55:50,640
disappeared but his girlfriend at the

1654
00:55:54,390 --> 00:55:53,440
time who's become a good friend of mine

1655
00:55:55,990 --> 00:55:54,400
you have to make that distinction

1656
00:55:57,430 --> 00:55:56,000
between being a friend and being you

1657
00:55:58,230 --> 00:55:57,440
know caring for someone like that and

1658
00:56:00,870 --> 00:55:58,240
then

1659
00:56:02,870 --> 00:56:00,880
also looking logically at the case so

1660
00:56:05,510 --> 00:56:02,880
there's our our disclaimer frederick

1661
00:56:09,030 --> 00:56:05,520
valentich you know he he had been flying

1662
00:56:11,510 --> 00:56:09,040
a cessna 182 l uh over the past straight

1663
00:56:13,349 --> 00:56:11,520
it was uh 21st of october 1978 and as

1664
00:56:15,589 --> 00:56:13,359
he's flying south

1665
00:56:16,390 --> 00:56:15,599
his intended route had been to kind of

1666
00:56:18,549 --> 00:56:16,400
fly

1667
00:56:21,430 --> 00:56:18,559
southwest along the coast and then

1668
00:56:23,670 --> 00:56:21,440
due southeast to king island there are

1669
00:56:25,109 --> 00:56:23,680
some weird aspects to this case because

1670
00:56:26,069 --> 00:56:25,119
the flight log that he'd filled out of

1671
00:56:29,030 --> 00:56:26,079
course

1672
00:56:31,190 --> 00:56:29,040
describes a flight path and whatnot but

1673
00:56:34,630 --> 00:56:31,200
he left much later than what the the

1674
00:56:36,150 --> 00:56:34,640
flight plan had uh stated right

1675
00:56:37,430 --> 00:56:36,160
the lights on the runway at king island

1676
00:56:39,270 --> 00:56:37,440
were never turned on because they had

1677
00:56:40,870 --> 00:56:39,280
not apparently been notified by

1678
00:56:41,910 --> 00:56:40,880
valentich that he was planning to fly

1679
00:56:44,870 --> 00:56:41,920
there

1680
00:56:47,510 --> 00:56:44,880
that was considered strange um what

1681
00:56:48,789 --> 00:56:47,520
essentially happens is he's flying

1682
00:56:51,190 --> 00:56:48,799
that evening

1683
00:56:53,349 --> 00:56:51,200
uh he is uh taking off

1684
00:56:54,710 --> 00:56:53,359
you know shortly before i guess shortly

1685
00:56:56,390 --> 00:56:54,720
before dark and i think while he's

1686
00:56:58,309 --> 00:56:56,400
flying it wasn't completely black dark

1687
00:57:00,390 --> 00:56:58,319
out although it was beginning to get

1688
00:57:01,990 --> 00:57:00,400
dark it seems what valentich was trying

1689
00:57:04,789 --> 00:57:02,000
to do he had a test coming up and he was

1690
00:57:07,750 --> 00:57:04,799
trying to get some night flying hours in

1691
00:57:09,430 --> 00:57:07,760
which he didn't have a lot of

1692
00:57:11,589 --> 00:57:09,440
so being a somewhat inexperienced

1693
00:57:13,510 --> 00:57:11,599
nighttime pilot i think definitely is

1694
00:57:15,030 --> 00:57:13,520
something that figures into this case

1695
00:57:16,390 --> 00:57:15,040
and what may have happened to him but as

1696
00:57:17,349 --> 00:57:16,400
he's flying down

1697
00:57:19,109 --> 00:57:17,359
on his

1698
00:57:20,549 --> 00:57:19,119
course for king island melbourne air

1699
00:57:23,030 --> 00:57:20,559
traffic control

1700
00:57:25,430 --> 00:57:23,040
begins receiving communications

1701
00:57:27,030 --> 00:57:25,440
from the lintage and he is

1702
00:57:28,150 --> 00:57:27,040
identified of course as delta sierra

1703
00:57:29,990 --> 00:57:28,160
juliet

1704
00:57:31,430 --> 00:57:30,000
and he's contacting melbourne and saying

1705
00:57:34,390 --> 00:57:31,440
melbourne do you have any traffic at

1706
00:57:35,750 --> 00:57:34,400
this altitude they've got uh

1707
00:57:38,230 --> 00:57:35,760
i think at this time they've got

1708
00:57:40,549 --> 00:57:38,240
valentich on the uh on the radar i think

1709
00:57:41,910 --> 00:57:40,559
later on later on i think he also made

1710
00:57:43,510 --> 00:57:41,920
may not have been on the radar but at

1711
00:57:44,870 --> 00:57:43,520
that point they had him

1712
00:57:45,990 --> 00:57:44,880
and uh they said we don't have any

1713
00:57:47,589 --> 00:57:46,000
traffic at your altitude but he's

1714
00:57:49,349 --> 00:57:47,599
describing some sort of an object some

1715
00:57:50,950 --> 00:57:49,359
sort of a green light or some object

1716
00:57:52,870 --> 00:57:50,960
with a green light on it and it's flying

1717
00:57:55,190 --> 00:57:52,880
and it's kind of going in circles

1718
00:57:57,109 --> 00:57:55,200
and um at one point he describes that is

1719
00:57:58,390 --> 00:57:57,119
it is orbiting him and he is orbiting it

1720
00:58:00,390 --> 00:57:58,400
in other words it seemed to be that he

1721
00:58:02,950 --> 00:58:00,400
was flying in a circle and that this

1722
00:58:05,829 --> 00:58:02,960
aircraft was kind of you know

1723
00:58:08,549 --> 00:58:05,839
apparently kind of keeping pace with him

1724
00:58:10,150 --> 00:58:08,559
in this orbiting fashion which is what

1725
00:58:12,309 --> 00:58:10,160
led uh robert

1726
00:58:13,270 --> 00:58:12,319
schaefer to consider whether indeed that

1727
00:58:14,069 --> 00:58:13,280
orbiting

1728
00:58:15,750 --> 00:58:14,079
uh

1729
00:58:16,870 --> 00:58:15,760
flight movement that he was describing

1730
00:58:18,150 --> 00:58:16,880
whether or not he might have actually

1731
00:58:20,390 --> 00:58:18,160
been going into what's called a death

1732
00:58:21,589 --> 00:58:20,400
spiral that's horrific

1733
00:58:22,870 --> 00:58:21,599
if you think about it now there is a

1734
00:58:24,470 --> 00:58:22,880
distinct possibility that whatever

1735
00:58:26,390 --> 00:58:24,480
happened to valentich that night i mean

1736
00:58:28,230 --> 00:58:26,400
involved a crash and that the wreckage

1737
00:58:30,470 --> 00:58:28,240
was never found heck

1738
00:58:31,990 --> 00:58:30,480
you know if a plane like mh370 can

1739
00:58:34,069 --> 00:58:32,000
vanish and that when we can't find it

1740
00:58:34,789 --> 00:58:34,079
after all of the resources and all of

1741
00:58:37,109 --> 00:58:34,799
the

1742
00:58:38,230 --> 00:58:37,119
uh effort in that search you know i i

1743
00:58:41,670 --> 00:58:38,240
don't think it would be difficult for a

1744
00:58:44,630 --> 00:58:41,680
182 l cessna to do the same now

1745
00:58:46,309 --> 00:58:44,640
what valencia begins to describe

1746
00:58:48,470 --> 00:58:46,319
during this this

1747
00:58:51,030 --> 00:58:48,480
famous dialogue between melbourne air

1748
00:58:52,630 --> 00:58:51,040
traffic control and he is this object

1749
00:58:54,069 --> 00:58:52,640
that you know kind of takes off and then

1750
00:58:56,630 --> 00:58:54,079
it comes back and

1751
00:58:58,549 --> 00:58:56,640
at some point he asks melbourne air

1752
00:59:00,789 --> 00:58:58,559
traffic control again about this this

1753
00:59:02,630 --> 00:59:00,799
object and he says uh melbourne this the

1754
00:59:04,390 --> 00:59:02,640
object is directly above me the object's

1755
00:59:07,430 --> 00:59:04,400
directly above me and it's it's hovering

1756
00:59:10,470 --> 00:59:07,440
it's hovering and it's not an aircraft

1757
00:59:11,910 --> 00:59:10,480
and then this is where it really gets

1758
00:59:14,789 --> 00:59:11,920
i mean

1759
00:59:16,789 --> 00:59:14,799
cold-blooded eerie i think because

1760
00:59:18,470 --> 00:59:16,799
the recording which was released to

1761
00:59:19,910 --> 00:59:18,480
family members and there were two mufon

1762
00:59:21,750 --> 00:59:19,920
investigators in the united states who

1763
00:59:23,270 --> 00:59:21,760
also reviewed the recording and we'll

1764
00:59:25,270 --> 00:59:23,280
come back to that in a moment

1765
00:59:26,470 --> 00:59:25,280
but uh what the public has access to of

1766
00:59:27,589 --> 00:59:26,480
course are the transcripts on the

1767
00:59:29,750 --> 00:59:27,599
recording it was said that there was

1768
00:59:32,390 --> 00:59:29,760
about 17 i'm sorry 14 seconds of

1769
00:59:34,549 --> 00:59:32,400
metallic scraping noise after he says

1770
00:59:36,950 --> 00:59:34,559
it's hovering and it's not an aircraft

1771
00:59:39,670 --> 00:59:36,960
and then the story goes that they lost

1772
00:59:40,710 --> 00:59:39,680
uh contact with valentich

1773
00:59:41,990 --> 00:59:40,720
so

1774
00:59:44,630 --> 00:59:42,000
yeah i'd always been fascinated with

1775
00:59:46,309 --> 00:59:44,640
that case ryan and at one point uh one

1776
00:59:47,510 --> 00:59:46,319
of my listeners in australia wrote to me

1777
00:59:49,510 --> 00:59:47,520
and said hey micah you know i've got a

1778
00:59:50,789 --> 00:59:49,520
friend who was freddie's girlfriend when

1779
00:59:52,630 --> 00:59:50,799
he went missing i think that you you

1780
00:59:54,309 --> 00:59:52,640
know you two should catch up and talk

1781
00:59:56,069 --> 00:59:54,319
wow

1782
00:59:57,589 --> 00:59:56,079
and you know at first it didn't even

1783
01:00:00,150 --> 00:59:57,599
dawn on me what this person was saying

1784
01:00:02,710 --> 01:00:00,160
because they said freddie's girlfriend

1785
01:00:04,069 --> 01:00:02,720
who's freddy where oh

1786
01:00:05,349 --> 01:00:04,079
and i remember

1787
01:00:06,390 --> 01:00:05,359
reading that email and going to sleep

1788
01:00:08,309 --> 01:00:06,400
and then getting up the next morning and

1789
01:00:10,470 --> 01:00:08,319
going back and rereading the email and

1790
01:00:13,430 --> 01:00:10,480
i'm like oh freddy

1791
01:00:15,030 --> 01:00:13,440
freddy frederick valentich so he says

1792
01:00:16,630 --> 01:00:15,040
yeah ronda is a good friend she works

1793
01:00:18,150 --> 01:00:16,640
here with me and you know she said that

1794
01:00:19,990 --> 01:00:18,160
she would be happy to talk to you so we

1795
01:00:22,870 --> 01:00:20,000
arranged for a skype

1796
01:00:24,950 --> 01:00:22,880
and uh brandy glass in hand and and here

1797
01:00:26,789 --> 01:00:24,960
in my bunker it was

1798
01:00:27,910 --> 01:00:26,799
you know late at night on mind and then

1799
01:00:29,349 --> 01:00:27,920
you know of course early morning in

1800
01:00:30,630 --> 01:00:29,359
australia where she and her husband joe

1801
01:00:32,630 --> 01:00:30,640
were and they were sitting there

1802
01:00:34,309 --> 01:00:32,640
drinking coffee and you know you can see

1803
01:00:36,150 --> 01:00:34,319
the the trees and stuff and the sunshine

1804
01:00:37,589 --> 01:00:36,160
in the background it was really sweet we

1805
01:00:39,270 --> 01:00:37,599
had this this great

1806
01:00:42,069 --> 01:00:39,280
conversation and i talked with rhonda

1807
01:00:43,589 --> 01:00:42,079
about just all sorts of different things

1808
01:00:45,270 --> 01:00:43,599
in relation to this case she has kept

1809
01:00:47,589 --> 01:00:45,280
every newspaper clipping she has i mean

1810
01:00:49,430 --> 01:00:47,599
scrapbooks full of stuff about this case

1811
01:00:51,190 --> 01:00:49,440
uh not only for her emotional attachment

1812
01:00:52,309 --> 01:00:51,200
to it but i mean it's it's fascinating

1813
01:00:54,309 --> 01:00:52,319
because

1814
01:00:55,670 --> 01:00:54,319
rhonda like so many she had this

1815
01:00:57,670 --> 01:00:55,680
personal experience she may not have

1816
01:00:59,109 --> 01:00:57,680
seen a ufo but she knows the story and

1817
01:01:01,030 --> 01:00:59,119
she was of course

1818
01:01:02,630 --> 01:01:01,040
she called it an interrogation but she

1819
01:01:04,309 --> 01:01:02,640
was interviewed by the air authority

1820
01:01:05,750 --> 01:01:04,319
there in australia because they were

1821
01:01:07,030 --> 01:01:05,760
trying to find out if anybody knew

1822
01:01:08,309 --> 01:01:07,040
anything about valentich and they had to

1823
01:01:09,670 --> 01:01:08,319
look at all possibilities and they

1824
01:01:11,990 --> 01:01:09,680
couldn't rule out the possibility that

1825
01:01:13,910 --> 01:01:12,000
maybe he had planned his disappearance

1826
01:01:15,829 --> 01:01:13,920
or something like that

1827
01:01:17,430 --> 01:01:15,839
um and i have heard those anecdotal

1828
01:01:19,430 --> 01:01:17,440
reports of people there was one in which

1829
01:01:20,950 --> 01:01:19,440
a person claimed that they were in

1830
01:01:22,390 --> 01:01:20,960
i think it was the bahamas but they met

1831
01:01:25,510 --> 01:01:22,400
a guy who claimed he was frederick

1832
01:01:27,670 --> 01:01:25,520
valentich um there's very little

1833
01:01:29,829 --> 01:01:27,680
in the way of uh substance let alone

1834
01:01:31,990 --> 01:01:29,839
validity i think to those stories but

1835
01:01:33,430 --> 01:01:32,000
they do come up from time to time uh

1836
01:01:35,030 --> 01:01:33,440
ronda on the other hand she has no idea

1837
01:01:37,349 --> 01:01:35,040
what happened to him but she certainly

1838
01:01:40,150 --> 01:01:37,359
took an interest in ufos thereafter

1839
01:01:42,150 --> 01:01:40,160
and one of the things that's weird ryan

1840
01:01:44,549 --> 01:01:42,160
is that a few years ago the uh the

1841
01:01:47,109 --> 01:01:44,559
australian government did post its uh

1842
01:01:49,990 --> 01:01:47,119
files on the valencia case online

1843
01:01:51,430 --> 01:01:50,000
and a number of us uh downloaded those

1844
01:01:53,670 --> 01:01:51,440
and and read the file i have a copy of

1845
01:01:55,109 --> 01:01:53,680
them uh myself

1846
01:01:57,270 --> 01:01:55,119
and they describe valentich as being

1847
01:01:58,950 --> 01:01:57,280
kind of you know depressed dark not a

1848
01:02:00,470 --> 01:01:58,960
friday night type they quote rhonda

1849
01:02:01,750 --> 01:02:00,480
saying and i when i talked with her i

1850
01:02:02,870 --> 01:02:01,760
said you know was he a depressed kind of

1851
01:02:04,150 --> 01:02:02,880
person do you think that that could have

1852
01:02:05,750 --> 01:02:04,160
contributed to this you know could it

1853
01:02:07,430 --> 01:02:05,760
have been a suicide and she said you

1854
01:02:08,789 --> 01:02:07,440
know he wasn't really like that and i've

1855
01:02:10,870 --> 01:02:08,799
read those documents that you're talking

1856
01:02:11,990 --> 01:02:10,880
about i know what they said that i said

1857
01:02:13,109 --> 01:02:12,000
and yeah i might have said he wasn't

1858
01:02:15,270 --> 01:02:13,119
exactly a friday night type but he

1859
01:02:16,710 --> 01:02:15,280
wasn't depressed he wasn't a loner

1860
01:02:18,549 --> 01:02:16,720
anything like that i mean she said we

1861
01:02:20,710 --> 01:02:18,559
love to go dancing you know he was very

1862
01:02:21,990 --> 01:02:20,720
you know well-dressed you know very you

1863
01:02:23,270 --> 01:02:22,000
know fashionable

1864
01:02:24,390 --> 01:02:23,280
he would come in he was very friendly

1865
01:02:25,510 --> 01:02:24,400
when he would come in and see her at

1866
01:02:26,789 --> 01:02:25,520
work and he would talk with people and

1867
01:02:28,309 --> 01:02:26,799
things like that

1868
01:02:29,589 --> 01:02:28,319
she said that the strangest thing though

1869
01:02:30,630 --> 01:02:29,599
had less to do with freddie and it had

1870
01:02:32,150 --> 01:02:30,640
to do with an incident that occurred

1871
01:02:33,750 --> 01:02:32,160
about a year after he vanished she was

1872
01:02:34,789 --> 01:02:33,760
in a department store where she worked

1873
01:02:37,030 --> 01:02:34,799
at the time

1874
01:02:38,470 --> 01:02:37,040
and the gentleman comes up to her

1875
01:02:40,069 --> 01:02:38,480
and he says

1876
01:02:41,670 --> 01:02:40,079
uh i remember you you're rhonda rushton

1877
01:02:43,030 --> 01:02:41,680
you were freddie's girlfriend and she

1878
01:02:45,270 --> 01:02:43,040
didn't recognize him well he was with

1879
01:02:47,190 --> 01:02:45,280
the air uh the authority and he had been

1880
01:02:48,789 --> 01:02:47,200
one of the people who had helped with

1881
01:02:50,230 --> 01:02:48,799
the uh interview

1882
01:02:52,470 --> 01:02:50,240
that yeah

1883
01:02:53,990 --> 01:02:52,480
uh of rhonda rush and uh

1884
01:02:56,069 --> 01:02:54,000
he seems to indicate to her that the

1885
01:02:57,829 --> 01:02:56,079
recording that was released to guido bel

1886
01:02:59,190 --> 01:02:57,839
valentich his father

1887
01:03:00,549 --> 01:02:59,200
that there was

1888
01:03:02,789 --> 01:03:00,559
well and this is what's funny they

1889
01:03:05,190 --> 01:03:02,799
described that recording as being an

1890
01:03:07,109 --> 01:03:05,200
edited recording the edited recording of

1891
01:03:08,390 --> 01:03:07,119
the dialogue with air traffic control

1892
01:03:10,230 --> 01:03:08,400
was released

1893
01:03:12,549 --> 01:03:10,240
and i'd always wondered okay what do

1894
01:03:15,109 --> 01:03:12,559
they mean by edited right yeah

1895
01:03:17,510 --> 01:03:15,119
what what didn't they hear yeah

1896
01:03:19,670 --> 01:03:17,520
and this conversation right yeah where

1897
01:03:22,230 --> 01:03:19,680
uh ronda's talking with this fella he

1898
01:03:24,150 --> 01:03:22,240
seems to indicate that after

1899
01:03:25,750 --> 01:03:24,160
the metallic scraping noise that after

1900
01:03:27,589 --> 01:03:25,760
that portion of the audio that there may

1901
01:03:29,109 --> 01:03:27,599
have been further dialogue

1902
01:03:30,470 --> 01:03:29,119
which is not on the transcripts and

1903
01:03:32,789 --> 01:03:30,480
presumably not on the tape that was

1904
01:03:34,789 --> 01:03:32,799
released now so i asked

1905
01:03:36,630 --> 01:03:34,799
yeah i asked for clarification i said

1906
01:03:38,069 --> 01:03:36,640
hold on are you telling me that there's

1907
01:03:39,430 --> 01:03:38,079
allegedly more to that recording and she

1908
01:03:41,190 --> 01:03:39,440
said that was the impression that i was

1909
01:03:42,549 --> 01:03:41,200
given during this conversation but

1910
01:03:44,390 --> 01:03:42,559
nobody's been able to hear this but we

1911
01:03:46,390 --> 01:03:44,400
do know that what was released to the

1912
01:03:49,349 --> 01:03:46,400
very few who have copies was described

1913
01:03:51,510 --> 01:03:49,359
as an edited tape okay

1914
01:03:53,990 --> 01:03:51,520
that's weird um another strange thing is

1915
01:03:56,789 --> 01:03:54,000
that the the valentich family had

1916
01:03:58,950 --> 01:03:56,799
written a book apparently about the case

1917
01:04:01,029 --> 01:03:58,960
which was stolen

1918
01:04:02,230 --> 01:04:01,039
and uh it was again the book that they

1919
01:04:03,589 --> 01:04:02,240
wrote was just a manuscript that they

1920
01:04:05,670 --> 01:04:03,599
had in their home but somebody came into

1921
01:04:07,510 --> 01:04:05,680
the home and stole the manuscript

1922
01:04:10,390 --> 01:04:07,520
stole that and uh they never found out

1923
01:04:11,670 --> 01:04:10,400
who i asked rhonda did she have any idea

1924
01:04:13,510 --> 01:04:11,680
who it might have been and she said well

1925
01:04:14,950 --> 01:04:13,520
in likelihood that was probably you know

1926
01:04:16,549 --> 01:04:14,960
some journalist who wanted to be able to

1927
01:04:17,829 --> 01:04:16,559
you know have a scoop or something like

1928
01:04:19,270 --> 01:04:17,839
that so they didn't allege that there

1929
01:04:20,230 --> 01:04:19,280
was some government conspiracy but i

1930
01:04:21,589 --> 01:04:20,240
didn't think that that was kind of

1931
01:04:24,390 --> 01:04:21,599
unusual that the

1932
01:04:26,309 --> 01:04:24,400
family's own personal account of life

1933
01:04:28,710 --> 01:04:26,319
after freddie disappeared was stolen

1934
01:04:29,990 --> 01:04:28,720
from them and taken and never recovered

1935
01:04:31,349 --> 01:04:30,000
yeah

1936
01:04:33,029 --> 01:04:31,359
and the other thing i asked her too is i

1937
01:04:35,109 --> 01:04:33,039
said you know listen did

1938
01:04:37,510 --> 01:04:35,119
uh what do you think about you know him

1939
01:04:38,789 --> 01:04:37,520
flying uh later and she said you know

1940
01:04:40,309 --> 01:04:38,799
here's the thing that was our

1941
01:04:42,230 --> 01:04:40,319
three-month anniversary i was supposed

1942
01:04:43,589 --> 01:04:42,240
to be on the plane with him she said i

1943
01:04:45,109 --> 01:04:43,599
was supposed to be flying with him that

1944
01:04:46,630 --> 01:04:45,119
night but i didn't get off working time

1945
01:04:48,150 --> 01:04:46,640
called my mom and dad

1946
01:04:49,510 --> 01:04:48,160
begged him to come get me they had plans

1947
01:04:51,109 --> 01:04:49,520
so they couldn't come get me we didn't

1948
01:04:52,470 --> 01:04:51,119
have cell phones back then so i couldn't

1949
01:04:53,750 --> 01:04:52,480
call freddy

1950
01:04:55,029 --> 01:04:53,760
the reason he seems to have left late

1951
01:04:56,950 --> 01:04:55,039
was because he had been waiting on

1952
01:04:58,710 --> 01:04:56,960
rhonda and imagine

1953
01:05:00,630 --> 01:04:58,720
i mean had she been with him she might

1954
01:05:02,150 --> 01:05:00,640
have vanished too

1955
01:05:03,750 --> 01:05:02,160
the way that the circumstance worked out

1956
01:05:05,270 --> 01:05:03,760
ryan i mean it's just so strange because

1957
01:05:07,750 --> 01:05:05,280
again it was heartbreaking for her

1958
01:05:09,589 --> 01:05:07,760
because he vanishes and they never find

1959
01:05:11,910 --> 01:05:09,599
freddy again and rhonda and the family

1960
01:05:14,230 --> 01:05:11,920
just had to learn to cope with that

1961
01:05:15,510 --> 01:05:14,240
but she had initially been planning to

1962
01:05:17,270 --> 01:05:15,520
be on that flight with him and she said

1963
01:05:19,750 --> 01:05:17,280
we were going to fly down and then come

1964
01:05:21,430 --> 01:05:19,760
back and we're going to go out to dinner

1965
01:05:23,190 --> 01:05:21,440
which is funny because again one of the

1966
01:05:24,470 --> 01:05:23,200
skeptical theories offered by philip

1967
01:05:26,150 --> 01:05:24,480
class had been that perhaps he had a

1968
01:05:27,430 --> 01:05:26,160
girlfriend down there on king island oh

1969
01:05:29,589 --> 01:05:27,440
yeah well i guess rhonda was going to go

1970
01:05:31,750 --> 01:05:29,599
meet the girlfriend huh yeah right well

1971
01:05:32,470 --> 01:05:31,760
that also begs the whole question of you

1972
01:05:34,549 --> 01:05:32,480
know

1973
01:05:37,510 --> 01:05:34,559
him planning some sort of suicide or

1974
01:05:38,470 --> 01:05:37,520
disappearance you know um unless he was

1975
01:05:40,630 --> 01:05:38,480
so

1976
01:05:43,829 --> 01:05:40,640
depressed and angry that she didn't show

1977
01:05:46,710 --> 01:05:43,839
up that he just left without her um

1978
01:05:48,390 --> 01:05:46,720
it it sort of shows us that uh you know

1979
01:05:51,510 --> 01:05:48,400
he wasn't planning on making this trip

1980
01:05:53,190 --> 01:05:51,520
alone so yeah it does bring up a lot of

1981
01:05:55,910 --> 01:05:53,200
questions for sure

1982
01:05:57,910 --> 01:05:55,920
yeah i did ask her one other thing too

1983
01:06:00,069 --> 01:05:57,920
i said you know rhonda did you ever fly

1984
01:06:01,270 --> 01:06:00,079
with him before that she said oh yeah i

1985
01:06:04,390 --> 01:06:01,280
said how many times and she said

1986
01:06:05,910 --> 01:06:04,400
probably 30. wow i said yeah i said can

1987
01:06:07,109 --> 01:06:05,920
i ask you a question i mean when you

1988
01:06:08,390 --> 01:06:07,119
were with him in the plane had he ever

1989
01:06:09,430 --> 01:06:08,400
done any kind of stunt flying anything

1990
01:06:11,510 --> 01:06:09,440
like that she said look i know what

1991
01:06:13,029 --> 01:06:11,520
you're wondering about did were we ever

1992
01:06:14,230 --> 01:06:13,039
upside down because one of those those

1993
01:06:15,670 --> 01:06:14,240
theories had been that he'd been flying

1994
01:06:19,029 --> 01:06:15,680
upside down

1995
01:06:21,750 --> 01:06:19,039
crashed into the ocean and the light he

1996
01:06:23,190 --> 01:06:21,760
saw and mistook for a ufo was the light

1997
01:06:27,589 --> 01:06:23,200
of the cockpit

1998
01:06:28,710 --> 01:06:27,599
there uh reflecting off of the ocean

1999
01:06:32,069 --> 01:06:28,720
below him

2000
01:06:33,430 --> 01:06:32,079
she said he did loopty loops uh and uh

2001
01:06:35,670 --> 01:06:33,440
zero g's and all these other kind of

2002
01:06:37,270 --> 01:06:35,680
things uh she described a variety of

2003
01:06:38,950 --> 01:06:37,280
different things that valentich likes to

2004
01:06:40,150 --> 01:06:38,960
do when he would fly and she said so

2005
01:06:42,150 --> 01:06:40,160
yeah i mean i'd been in the plane with

2006
01:06:43,430 --> 01:06:42,160
him before when we had flown upside down

2007
01:06:45,910 --> 01:06:43,440
trust me you know when you're upside

2008
01:06:49,829 --> 01:06:47,829
and and she said specifically that uh in

2009
01:06:51,750 --> 01:06:49,839
that kind of an aircraft that the radio

2010
01:06:53,670 --> 01:06:51,760
the mic would would be dangling upside

2011
01:06:55,829 --> 01:06:53,680
down

2012
01:06:57,270 --> 01:06:55,839
so you know the impression i got from

2013
01:06:58,710 --> 01:06:57,280
her is that uh

2014
01:07:00,630 --> 01:06:58,720
first of all she was never interviewed

2015
01:07:02,390 --> 01:07:00,640
by any of these skeptics

2016
01:07:03,990 --> 01:07:02,400
and uh that she has just as many

2017
01:07:05,589 --> 01:07:04,000
questions as the rest of us but really

2018
01:07:07,510 --> 01:07:05,599
what can we say he describes seeing

2019
01:07:09,430 --> 01:07:07,520
something strange he went missing he and

2020
01:07:11,029 --> 01:07:09,440
his plane were never found that's all we

2021
01:07:12,630 --> 01:07:11,039
could really say about that case but to

2022
01:07:15,109 --> 01:07:12,640
try and make all these again what i

2023
01:07:16,950 --> 01:07:15,119
think are absurd speculative theories

2024
01:07:18,549 --> 01:07:16,960
about the girlfriend or the suicide

2025
01:07:19,910 --> 01:07:18,559
attempt or all these strange things that

2026
01:07:22,710 --> 01:07:19,920
he might have been secretly planning and

2027
01:07:24,230 --> 01:07:22,720
they never once the skeptical thinkers

2028
01:07:26,470 --> 01:07:24,240
who have proposed these theories they

2029
01:07:28,870 --> 01:07:26,480
never once went and you know interviewed

2030
01:07:31,510 --> 01:07:28,880
rhonda themselves and what happens to me

2031
01:07:33,190 --> 01:07:31,520
of course is somebody hears portions of

2032
01:07:34,630 --> 01:07:33,200
the interview that i did with rhonda and

2033
01:07:35,990 --> 01:07:34,640
they said micah you've gotten too close

2034
01:07:37,349 --> 01:07:36,000
to this case

2035
01:07:38,710 --> 01:07:37,359
you've allowed yourself to get too close

2036
01:07:40,230 --> 01:07:38,720
to the case because you became friends

2037
01:07:42,950 --> 01:07:40,240
with one of the witnesses i said she is

2038
01:07:44,390 --> 01:07:42,960
a friend now but

2039
01:07:46,789 --> 01:07:44,400
when i interviewed her i was looking for

2040
01:07:48,470 --> 01:07:46,799
answers and i don't think that

2041
01:07:50,309 --> 01:07:48,480
that actually doing what nobody else did

2042
01:07:51,829 --> 01:07:50,319
and asking her

2043
01:07:53,589 --> 01:07:51,839
about certain details of that case i

2044
01:07:55,270 --> 01:07:53,599
don't think that that undermines the

2045
01:07:56,549 --> 01:07:55,280
integrity of the research if anything

2046
01:07:57,670 --> 01:07:56,559
adds to it

2047
01:07:59,029 --> 01:07:57,680
in ways that

2048
01:08:00,630 --> 01:07:59,039
people you know people like philip class

2049
01:08:04,390 --> 01:08:00,640
they didn't bother to

2050
01:08:08,789 --> 01:08:06,390
it really is they either made it up or

2051
01:08:11,190 --> 01:08:08,799
they didn't take the time and you know

2052
01:08:12,950 --> 01:08:11,200
our our good buddy stan friedman always

2053
01:08:14,789 --> 01:08:12,960
says you know the skeptics always use my

2054
01:08:17,189 --> 01:08:14,799
mind is made up so

2055
01:08:18,950 --> 01:08:17,199
uh well i mean

2056
01:08:20,709 --> 01:08:18,960
ah such a compelling case my good

2057
01:08:21,510 --> 01:08:20,719
speaking of class

2058
01:08:23,669 --> 01:08:21,520
he

2059
01:08:25,749 --> 01:08:23,679
referred to this book that i want to

2060
01:08:27,510 --> 01:08:25,759
talk about with you um

2061
01:08:30,630 --> 01:08:27,520
as one of the most significant and

2062
01:08:33,110 --> 01:08:30,640
useful books on ufos ever published now

2063
01:08:36,309 --> 01:08:33,120
for someone like philip j class to say

2064
01:08:37,189 --> 01:08:36,319
that that that means something um

2065
01:08:38,789 --> 01:08:37,199
and

2066
01:08:40,309 --> 01:08:38,799
you brought this up to me you sent me a

2067
01:08:42,789 --> 01:08:40,319
picture of the cover and you said you

2068
01:08:45,829 --> 01:08:42,799
got to get this book uh and that was by

2069
01:08:48,070 --> 01:08:45,839
astronomer alan hendry i want to sort of

2070
01:08:49,110 --> 01:08:48,080
talk about what this book is about and

2071
01:08:50,470 --> 01:08:49,120
uh

2072
01:08:55,510 --> 01:08:50,480
how

2073
01:08:57,669 --> 01:08:55,520
in terms of ufology these days you know

2074
01:08:59,349 --> 01:08:57,679
um we've got a lot of

2075
01:09:02,229 --> 01:08:59,359
a lot of

2076
01:09:03,910 --> 01:09:02,239
i guess pathways that ufology is taking

2077
01:09:06,550 --> 01:09:03,920
whether it's scientific whether it's

2078
01:09:09,910 --> 01:09:06,560
from the soft sciences whether it's uh

2079
01:09:11,030 --> 01:09:09,920
from a a cultural standpoint a contact d

2080
01:09:12,870 --> 01:09:11,040
standpoint

2081
01:09:14,789 --> 01:09:12,880
the possibilities are endless but uh

2082
01:09:17,030 --> 01:09:14,799
this seems to be a strictly scientific

2083
01:09:19,510 --> 01:09:17,040
approach could you tell us a little bit

2084
01:09:21,990 --> 01:09:19,520
about this book by mr hendry and

2085
01:09:22,789 --> 01:09:22,000
why it means so much to you

2086
01:09:24,709 --> 01:09:22,799
yeah

2087
01:09:26,709 --> 01:09:24,719
this is a book that uh

2088
01:09:29,110 --> 01:09:26,719
i i will mention this book to so many

2089
01:09:32,550 --> 01:09:29,120
people and uh i mean some of the most

2090
01:09:34,070 --> 01:09:32,560
revered ufo researchers of modern times

2091
01:09:35,829 --> 01:09:34,080
had never heard of this they might they

2092
01:09:38,309 --> 01:09:35,839
might have heard of the author

2093
01:09:39,829 --> 01:09:38,319
alan henry of course he was i think his

2094
01:09:41,990 --> 01:09:39,839
minor was in astronomy he was actually a

2095
01:09:44,309 --> 01:09:42,000
commercial artist

2096
01:09:45,749 --> 01:09:44,319
and like me this may sound strange

2097
01:09:47,510 --> 01:09:45,759
because in the context of a discussion

2098
01:09:49,269 --> 01:09:47,520
that's very specific and really picking

2099
01:09:52,709 --> 01:09:49,279
over the details about you know a number

2100
01:09:54,550 --> 01:09:52,719
of ufo cases which hendry did and and i

2101
01:09:56,630 --> 01:09:54,560
would argue in a much more scientific

2102
01:09:58,229 --> 01:09:56,640
fashion than any one probably before or

2103
01:09:59,910 --> 01:09:58,239
after him but

2104
01:10:01,750 --> 01:09:59,920
i take it that he was also somebody who

2105
01:10:04,149 --> 01:10:01,760
had sort of a passing interest in ufos

2106
01:10:05,830 --> 01:10:04,159
like i do that may make no sense but

2107
01:10:08,070 --> 01:10:05,840
again the range of stuff i'm interested

2108
01:10:10,390 --> 01:10:08,080
in ufos are like the pinky finger on the

2109
01:10:11,910 --> 01:10:10,400
hand okay right but but anything that

2110
01:10:13,669 --> 01:10:11,920
i'm interested in

2111
01:10:15,350 --> 01:10:13,679
i try to be thorough with it and so

2112
01:10:17,270 --> 01:10:15,360
often i'm invited on shows like this and

2113
01:10:19,030 --> 01:10:17,280
we will talk about ufos and then next

2114
01:10:20,709 --> 01:10:19,040
thing i see is you know some skeptics

2115
01:10:23,270 --> 01:10:20,719
written a blog post talking about

2116
01:10:25,830 --> 01:10:23,280
ufologist micah hanks i never claimed to

2117
01:10:27,910 --> 01:10:25,840
be a ufologist and alan hendry for at

2118
01:10:28,870 --> 01:10:27,920
least a few years was a ufologist what

2119
01:10:29,830 --> 01:10:28,880
he did

2120
01:10:33,350 --> 01:10:29,840
was

2121
01:10:35,270 --> 01:10:33,360
that the center for ufo studies under

2122
01:10:37,510 --> 01:10:35,280
jaylen heineck during the 1970s while it

2123
01:10:39,030 --> 01:10:37,520
had some decent funding for scientific

2124
01:10:40,709 --> 01:10:39,040
studies of ufos

2125
01:10:43,669 --> 01:10:40,719
they had time for a full-time employee

2126
01:10:46,070 --> 01:10:43,679
and so alan hendry became that employee

2127
01:10:47,910 --> 01:10:46,080
i think that uh heineken said that he

2128
01:10:49,430 --> 01:10:47,920
favored henry because he did have some

2129
01:10:52,390 --> 01:10:49,440
background in astronomy and again that

2130
01:10:54,950 --> 01:10:52,400
minor but yeah his his primary focus and

2131
01:10:56,790 --> 01:10:54,960
and actual commercial uh

2132
01:10:58,630 --> 01:10:56,800
profession was he was an artist his wife

2133
01:11:01,669 --> 01:10:58,640
on the other hand actually uh was a

2134
01:11:04,149 --> 01:11:01,679
astronomer and i think had a phd yeah

2135
01:11:06,870 --> 01:11:04,159
yep so yeah and she often would assist

2136
01:11:09,510 --> 01:11:06,880
him by the way with with uh various um

2137
01:11:11,430 --> 01:11:09,520
investigations so what henry would do

2138
01:11:13,669 --> 01:11:11,440
essentially is he manned the phone line

2139
01:11:14,709 --> 01:11:13,679
there at the center for ufo studies

2140
01:11:16,149 --> 01:11:14,719
and he would

2141
01:11:18,950 --> 01:11:16,159
i mean nine times out of ten he would be

2142
01:11:20,870 --> 01:11:18,960
able to very easily rule out ufos and he

2143
01:11:22,550 --> 01:11:20,880
discusses how he when i say rule them

2144
01:11:24,229 --> 01:11:22,560
out he makes the distinction between the

2145
01:11:27,669 --> 01:11:24,239
unidentified flying object and then the

2146
01:11:30,390 --> 01:11:27,679
ifo the identified flyball flying object

2147
01:11:33,350 --> 01:11:30,400
and in his book that he wrote in 1979

2148
01:11:34,709 --> 01:11:33,360
called the ufo handbook which no longer

2149
01:11:38,390 --> 01:11:34,719
imprint to my knowledge but you can

2150
01:11:40,870 --> 01:11:38,400
still get copies on amazon used copies

2151
01:11:43,430 --> 01:11:40,880
it's a very thorough book uh it

2152
01:11:44,950 --> 01:11:43,440
describes everything that he would go i

2153
01:11:46,709 --> 01:11:44,960
mean the entire list he would run the

2154
01:11:49,030 --> 01:11:46,719
gamut from uh this was a popular one

2155
01:11:50,709 --> 01:11:49,040
back in the day advertising planes and

2156
01:11:52,390 --> 01:11:50,719
occasionally i'll get ufo reports even

2157
01:11:54,470 --> 01:11:52,400
these days where people say i mean i saw

2158
01:11:56,470 --> 01:11:54,480
this ufo it was the craziest thing i've

2159
01:11:59,350 --> 01:11:56,480
ever seen but it was so strange micah it

2160
01:12:00,550 --> 01:11:59,360
was advertising pizza hut it did like

2161
01:12:03,189 --> 01:12:00,560
and i've actually had people say that

2162
01:12:04,790 --> 01:12:03,199
they saw ufos that seemed to be like

2163
01:12:07,030 --> 01:12:04,800
flashing letters that said pizza hut and

2164
01:12:09,590 --> 01:12:07,040
i said that was an advertising plane

2165
01:12:10,630 --> 01:12:09,600
yeah and un incredibly people have never

2166
01:12:13,270 --> 01:12:10,640
seen this they don't know what an

2167
01:12:14,950 --> 01:12:13,280
advertising plane is well that was

2168
01:12:16,950 --> 01:12:14,960
i think you know a lot of those cases

2169
01:12:19,669 --> 01:12:16,960
maybe a majority these are what a lot of

2170
01:12:21,830 --> 01:12:19,679
people described as being ufos i suspect

2171
01:12:23,910 --> 01:12:21,840
that the famous ufo seen by john lennon

2172
01:12:25,430 --> 01:12:23,920
there in new york may have been one too

2173
01:12:26,870 --> 01:12:25,440
and i know that that

2174
01:12:28,550 --> 01:12:26,880
would probably anger a lot of people to

2175
01:12:29,910 --> 01:12:28,560
try and seemingly diminish the

2176
01:12:32,709 --> 01:12:29,920
importance of that report but i think

2177
01:12:35,110 --> 01:12:32,719
any good ufo case deserves to be studied

2178
01:12:37,030 --> 01:12:35,120
and if we can identify what it was all

2179
01:12:38,790 --> 01:12:37,040
the better so again

2180
01:12:40,630 --> 01:12:38,800
that may be what lennon saw in his

2181
01:12:42,790 --> 01:12:40,640
famous encounter but alan henry would

2182
01:12:44,390 --> 01:12:42,800
call the air traffic control operators

2183
01:12:47,030 --> 01:12:44,400
in the region in question he would

2184
01:12:48,630 --> 01:12:47,040
sometimes travel uh to the scene right

2185
01:12:49,830 --> 01:12:48,640
he would personally investigate and

2186
01:12:51,110 --> 01:12:49,840
sometimes use field equipment that

2187
01:12:52,550 --> 01:12:51,120
included you know geiger counters and

2188
01:12:55,270 --> 01:12:52,560
things like this

2189
01:12:57,510 --> 01:12:55,280
and he seriously did very good

2190
01:12:59,350 --> 01:12:57,520
scientific research and documented the

2191
01:13:01,750 --> 01:12:59,360
the majority of these ufos and was able

2192
01:13:04,870 --> 01:13:01,760
to identify them but as is typically the

2193
01:13:06,870 --> 01:13:04,880
case in ufology there was that distinct

2194
01:13:08,149 --> 01:13:06,880
minority of cases

2195
01:13:09,430 --> 01:13:08,159
that really seemed to constitute

2196
01:13:10,950 --> 01:13:09,440
something strange and there are these

2197
01:13:13,270 --> 01:13:10,960
great chapters

2198
01:13:15,030 --> 01:13:13,280
in that ufo handbook he wrote one of

2199
01:13:16,630 --> 01:13:15,040
them after the whole range of

2200
01:13:19,910 --> 01:13:16,640
classifications of different things that

2201
01:13:21,830 --> 01:13:19,920
might be misidentified as ufos the ifos

2202
01:13:23,270 --> 01:13:21,840
he has the ifo message and he breaks it

2203
01:13:24,870 --> 01:13:23,280
all down and kind of

2204
01:13:27,030 --> 01:13:24,880
looks at it as a statistician and then

2205
01:13:29,110 --> 01:13:27,040
he starts making correlations and starts

2206
01:13:31,030 --> 01:13:29,120
examining what we take from people who

2207
01:13:32,950 --> 01:13:31,040
think they've seen incredible things

2208
01:13:34,229 --> 01:13:32,960
when in fact we now know what they

2209
01:13:36,310 --> 01:13:34,239
actually saw and we know it couldn't

2210
01:13:38,470 --> 01:13:36,320
have been what they described

2211
01:13:40,470 --> 01:13:38,480
then he looks at the ufo phenomena and

2212
01:13:43,510 --> 01:13:40,480
does a whole separate chapter that's

2213
01:13:44,870 --> 01:13:43,520
titled the ufo message

2214
01:13:46,950 --> 01:13:44,880
this is some of the best writing i've

2215
01:13:49,430 --> 01:13:46,960
ever come across on

2216
01:13:52,390 --> 01:13:49,440
interpretive analysis of the truly

2217
01:13:54,390 --> 01:13:52,400
unexplainable ufo cases

2218
01:13:55,910 --> 01:13:54,400
in which he goes into all the range of

2219
01:13:57,189 --> 01:13:55,920
different kinds of possibilities and

2220
01:13:58,630 --> 01:13:57,199
things that maybe afforded us and it

2221
01:14:01,830 --> 01:13:58,640
seems that like a good scientist should

2222
01:14:03,350 --> 01:14:01,840
be alan henry uh was very skeptical in

2223
01:14:04,709 --> 01:14:03,360
fact stanton freeman told me last

2224
01:14:06,709 --> 01:14:04,719
february he said he was just too

2225
01:14:07,830 --> 01:14:06,719
skeptical for me

2226
01:14:09,750 --> 01:14:07,840
but

2227
01:14:11,110 --> 01:14:09,760
i would say henry was also extremely

2228
01:14:13,110 --> 01:14:11,120
open-minded i mean he never shut the

2229
01:14:15,350 --> 01:14:13,120
door on the idea of humanoids and

2230
01:14:17,990 --> 01:14:15,360
possible non-human entities and things

2231
01:14:20,390 --> 01:14:18,000
when he he described and he rather than

2232
01:14:22,229 --> 01:14:20,400
forming opinions he he you know he he

2233
01:14:23,510 --> 01:14:22,239
collected facts and he reported and then

2234
01:14:25,750 --> 01:14:23,520
he tried to interpret and he tried to

2235
01:14:27,189 --> 01:14:25,760
use science at all times to do that

2236
01:14:28,790 --> 01:14:27,199
and

2237
01:14:29,990 --> 01:14:28,800
you know again even philip class was

2238
01:14:31,350 --> 01:14:30,000
able to look at that book and say well

2239
01:14:32,950 --> 01:14:31,360
this is one of the most important books

2240
01:14:33,910 --> 01:14:32,960
on this subject that's ever been written

2241
01:14:35,750 --> 01:14:33,920
and yet

2242
01:14:37,270 --> 01:14:35,760
hardly anybody these days seems to even

2243
01:14:38,950 --> 01:14:37,280
remember who alan hendry was because

2244
01:14:41,430 --> 01:14:38,960
again he worked for the center for ufo

2245
01:14:43,270 --> 01:14:41,440
studies he did some great research he

2246
01:14:45,110 --> 01:14:43,280
got out of eventually

2247
01:14:46,470 --> 01:14:45,120
he's no longer active i don't know if

2248
01:14:47,750 --> 01:14:46,480
henry's still around i've thought of

2249
01:14:49,910 --> 01:14:47,760
trying to see if i could look him up and

2250
01:14:51,030 --> 01:14:49,920
if he would be willing to even privately

2251
01:14:52,630 --> 01:14:51,040
just chat because i know he doesn't

2252
01:14:54,470 --> 01:14:52,640
appear on podcasts and nobody ever

2253
01:14:56,709 --> 01:14:54,480
invites him and he's arguably one of the

2254
01:14:58,070 --> 01:14:56,719
best ufo researchers of all time and you

2255
01:15:00,950 --> 01:14:58,080
know just completely overlooked he's got

2256
01:15:02,950 --> 01:15:00,960
a wikipedia page at least but

2257
01:15:04,709 --> 01:15:02,960
yeah sadly that's all we usually get

2258
01:15:07,189 --> 01:15:04,719
when people

2259
01:15:09,669 --> 01:15:07,199
uh you know sort of step out of this

2260
01:15:11,110 --> 01:15:09,679
field is wikipedia but um

2261
01:15:13,669 --> 01:15:11,120
you know what one of the things that

2262
01:15:16,470 --> 01:15:13,679
caught me most micah was um

2263
01:15:18,229 --> 01:15:16,480
in an article you talked about uh

2264
01:15:20,229 --> 01:15:18,239
andrey saying something to the effects

2265
01:15:22,229 --> 01:15:20,239
of even if sociology

2266
01:15:25,189 --> 01:15:22,239
is the ultimate explanation of ufo

2267
01:15:27,830 --> 01:15:25,199
reports the implications may be just as

2268
01:15:29,910 --> 01:15:27,840
important um what do you make of that do

2269
01:15:32,229 --> 01:15:29,920
you does that lend any credence to your

2270
01:15:34,709 --> 01:15:32,239
approach to studying the ufo phenomenon

2271
01:15:38,229 --> 01:15:34,719
yeah absolutely does ryan absolutely and

2272
01:15:39,910 --> 01:15:38,239
i'll tell you why because

2273
01:15:41,430 --> 01:15:39,920
there have been times throughout history

2274
01:15:43,030 --> 01:15:41,440
i think this is a great way to phrase

2275
01:15:44,229 --> 01:15:43,040
this there have been times throughout

2276
01:15:46,229 --> 01:15:44,239
history where

2277
01:15:48,229 --> 01:15:46,239
we might

2278
01:15:49,669 --> 01:15:48,239
whether we see something over like a ufo

2279
01:15:51,590 --> 01:15:49,679
or whether we dream something or whether

2280
01:15:53,110 --> 01:15:51,600
we just imagine something

2281
01:15:54,870 --> 01:15:53,120
there have been a lot of instances

2282
01:15:55,910 --> 01:15:54,880
throughout history where

2283
01:15:58,310 --> 01:15:55,920
we will

2284
01:15:59,750 --> 01:15:58,320
have an idea and every idea has an

2285
01:16:01,990 --> 01:15:59,760
inspiration whatever that inspiration

2286
01:16:03,510 --> 01:16:02,000
may be and then that idea may go on in

2287
01:16:05,110 --> 01:16:03,520
an abstract way

2288
01:16:06,870 --> 01:16:05,120
and i think henry probably understood

2289
01:16:08,870 --> 01:16:06,880
this very well being an artist

2290
01:16:11,350 --> 01:16:08,880
but that inspiration

2291
01:16:14,310 --> 01:16:11,360
through abstraction leads to

2292
01:16:15,510 --> 01:16:14,320
creation and even innovation

2293
01:16:17,510 --> 01:16:15,520
and

2294
01:16:19,830 --> 01:16:17,520
as far as ufos go i mean i will be

2295
01:16:22,070 --> 01:16:19,840
fascinated if belief in the possibility

2296
01:16:23,270 --> 01:16:22,080
of alien life visiting earth and

2297
01:16:26,709 --> 01:16:23,280
you know even

2298
01:16:28,630 --> 01:16:26,719
exotic kinds of uh of uh aircraft and

2299
01:16:29,910 --> 01:16:28,640
other modes of transportation because i

2300
01:16:31,270 --> 01:16:29,920
mean it might be debatable especially

2301
01:16:33,270 --> 01:16:31,280
based on their

2302
01:16:35,430 --> 01:16:33,280
you know on their operation and observed

2303
01:16:38,950 --> 01:16:35,440
operations that uh you know if any of

2304
01:16:41,030 --> 01:16:38,960
these extremely anomalous ufo cases uh

2305
01:16:43,110 --> 01:16:41,040
that remain unexplained are indeed

2306
01:16:44,630 --> 01:16:43,120
representative of what people described

2307
01:16:45,510 --> 01:16:44,640
seeing at the time that this occurred i

2308
01:16:47,030 --> 01:16:45,520
mean

2309
01:16:48,790 --> 01:16:47,040
it might even be debatable whether these

2310
01:16:50,310 --> 01:16:48,800
are aircraft i would say rather than

2311
01:16:52,149 --> 01:16:50,320
being aircraft as we know them these may

2312
01:16:54,470 --> 01:16:52,159
be objects that move through the air but

2313
01:16:55,990 --> 01:16:54,480
not exactly aircraft

2314
01:16:57,030 --> 01:16:56,000
that's that you know

2315
01:16:59,350 --> 01:16:57,040
i think we're dealing with something

2316
01:17:01,510 --> 01:16:59,360
that could be a lot more complex than

2317
01:17:02,950 --> 01:17:01,520
the kinds of technologies that we know

2318
01:17:04,470 --> 01:17:02,960
and that we're used to dealing with and

2319
01:17:06,630 --> 01:17:04,480
that are familiar with and that we're

2320
01:17:08,470 --> 01:17:06,640
capable of you know

2321
01:17:09,830 --> 01:17:08,480
understanding and replicating

2322
01:17:11,750 --> 01:17:09,840
so that said

2323
01:17:13,430 --> 01:17:11,760
let's say that there is no ufo and let's

2324
01:17:15,189 --> 01:17:13,440
say that this is something that through

2325
01:17:17,990 --> 01:17:15,199
misidentification and all kinds of other

2326
01:17:19,669 --> 01:17:18,000
things that a belief system of sorts has

2327
01:17:21,110 --> 01:17:19,679
been built around

2328
01:17:22,870 --> 01:17:21,120
and that maybe as we're becoming a more

2329
01:17:24,790 --> 01:17:22,880
technologically proficient society we're

2330
01:17:26,310 --> 01:17:24,800
moving slowly away from that let's let's

2331
01:17:27,830 --> 01:17:26,320
say that that's the case and that again

2332
01:17:28,950 --> 01:17:27,840
there's nothing but that sociological

2333
01:17:30,470 --> 01:17:28,960
component

2334
01:17:32,470 --> 01:17:30,480
but our belief in something that didn't

2335
01:17:34,310 --> 01:17:32,480
exist has nonetheless had a profound

2336
01:17:36,070 --> 01:17:34,320
influence on our culture and may have

2337
01:17:38,630 --> 01:17:36,080
even influenced

2338
01:17:39,830 --> 01:17:38,640
varieties of innovation and technologies

2339
01:17:41,430 --> 01:17:39,840
and then you get into the realm of some

2340
01:17:44,229 --> 01:17:41,440
of these what again some would call

2341
01:17:46,950 --> 01:17:44,239
government ufos if indeed these aircraft

2342
01:17:48,950 --> 01:17:46,960
have been designed and have been built

2343
01:17:50,550 --> 01:17:48,960
uh and they resemble things that have

2344
01:17:52,229 --> 01:17:50,560
appeared you know in the pulp magazines

2345
01:17:54,229 --> 01:17:52,239
and the sci-fi mags and the and the

2346
01:17:56,470 --> 01:17:54,239
novels and stuff from the 1920s 30s and

2347
01:17:58,950 --> 01:17:56,480
40s i mean it very well may be that

2348
01:18:00,870 --> 01:17:58,960
again we have created our own ufo

2349
01:18:03,270 --> 01:18:00,880
phenomena which has its

2350
01:18:05,830 --> 01:18:03,280
very real anomalous attributes as well

2351
01:18:07,510 --> 01:18:05,840
as elements of secrecy associated with

2352
01:18:09,189 --> 01:18:07,520
it and at some point it becomes very

2353
01:18:10,830 --> 01:18:09,199
difficult to say whether there is or is

2354
01:18:13,189 --> 01:18:10,840
not a phenomena

2355
01:18:15,910 --> 01:18:13,199
because however you look at it seems to

2356
01:18:18,070 --> 01:18:15,920
be something that was an observation

2357
01:18:19,669 --> 01:18:18,080
that out of abstraction has led to

2358
01:18:23,030 --> 01:18:19,679
whatever reality you want to attribute

2359
01:18:24,870 --> 01:18:23,040
to it what we call the ufo reality today

2360
01:18:27,030 --> 01:18:24,880
absolutely and we know that people like

2361
01:18:29,510 --> 01:18:27,040
carl young and jack valet have looked at

2362
01:18:32,550 --> 01:18:29,520
this as well the whole post

2363
01:18:34,470 --> 01:18:32,560
war anxiety aspect of all this um

2364
01:18:36,709 --> 01:18:34,480
is it all something of the mind and what

2365
01:18:38,709 --> 01:18:36,719
could if it is you know what can we

2366
01:18:41,350 --> 01:18:38,719
extrapolate from that i know

2367
01:18:43,110 --> 01:18:41,360
in an article touching on henry's book

2368
01:18:45,270 --> 01:18:43,120
that you

2369
01:18:46,790 --> 01:18:45,280
you brought up something that i've never

2370
01:18:48,790 --> 01:18:46,800
really thought about and that's that

2371
01:18:50,470 --> 01:18:48,800
we're searching for answers about what

2372
01:18:52,070 --> 01:18:50,480
ufos are

2373
01:18:54,390 --> 01:18:52,080
and we're not paying attention to the

2374
01:18:56,709 --> 01:18:54,400
information we're actually gleaning

2375
01:18:58,229 --> 01:18:56,719
from the scientific approach

2376
01:18:59,830 --> 01:18:58,239
and uh

2377
01:19:03,030 --> 01:18:59,840
you know the discoveries that are being

2378
01:19:06,390 --> 01:19:03,040
made about what ufos are not is also

2379
01:19:08,870 --> 01:19:06,400
interesting and essential um would you

2380
01:19:10,550 --> 01:19:08,880
agree with that if that made any sense

2381
01:19:11,270 --> 01:19:10,560
it made perfect sense and yes i would

2382
01:19:12,070 --> 01:19:11,280
okay

2383
01:19:14,229 --> 01:19:12,080
you know

2384
01:19:15,990 --> 01:19:14,239
the other thing too ryan is i don't

2385
01:19:18,550 --> 01:19:16,000
think and this is why i wanted to uh i

2386
01:19:20,149 --> 01:19:18,560
think some people may have misunderstood

2387
01:19:21,830 --> 01:19:20,159
i'll say that because i think that

2388
01:19:23,030 --> 01:19:21,840
that's more accurate rather than

2389
01:19:24,470 --> 01:19:23,040
friendly

2390
01:19:25,910 --> 01:19:24,480
the other term i might have used is they

2391
01:19:27,990 --> 01:19:25,920
might have mistaken but no i think some

2392
01:19:30,310 --> 01:19:28,000
people will probably see my article and

2393
01:19:31,990 --> 01:19:30,320
they'll say oh you know micah's just

2394
01:19:34,149 --> 01:19:32,000
you know he's read henry's book and now

2395
01:19:35,750 --> 01:19:34,159
he's just regurgitating what henry wrote

2396
01:19:36,790 --> 01:19:35,760
well actually if you if the essay that

2397
01:19:38,790 --> 01:19:36,800
you're talking about which you know of

2398
01:19:41,110 --> 01:19:38,800
course appears in a uh a volume you've

2399
01:19:42,149 --> 01:19:41,120
contributed a fine uh essay as well and

2400
01:19:45,189 --> 01:19:42,159
this is

2401
01:19:46,950 --> 01:19:45,199
uh robbie graham's upcoming anthology

2402
01:19:48,790 --> 01:19:46,960
which uh having not been released yet we

2403
01:19:50,550 --> 01:19:48,800
won't say too much but ufo's reframing

2404
01:19:52,709 --> 01:19:50,560
the debate i think it's okay to to name

2405
01:19:53,430 --> 01:19:52,719
that here and uh robbie's a fabulous guy

2406
01:19:55,189 --> 01:19:53,440
and

2407
01:19:57,590 --> 01:19:55,199
we got a lot of other great authors who

2408
01:19:59,990 --> 01:19:57,600
contributed to this uh volume

2409
01:20:01,830 --> 01:20:00,000
so i wasn't just trying to you know take

2410
01:20:04,470 --> 01:20:01,840
up the you know the

2411
01:20:05,750 --> 01:20:04,480
you know the rain for uh for uh alan

2412
01:20:07,910 --> 01:20:05,760
hendry and just carry on in his

2413
01:20:10,390 --> 01:20:07,920
footsteps because nobody else would

2414
01:20:12,550 --> 01:20:10,400
what i was trying to do with this essay

2415
01:20:15,189 --> 01:20:12,560
which actually i propose an entirely

2416
01:20:17,590 --> 01:20:15,199
different classification system for ufos

2417
01:20:20,390 --> 01:20:17,600
in this essay and i also provide my own

2418
01:20:22,790 --> 01:20:20,400
modern updated list of

2419
01:20:23,990 --> 01:20:22,800
what you might call uh potential ifos

2420
01:20:25,830 --> 01:20:24,000
because i think that the important thing

2421
01:20:27,669 --> 01:20:25,840
about being able to rule out those

2422
01:20:30,229 --> 01:20:27,679
things which are not what we want to try

2423
01:20:32,070 --> 01:20:30,239
and determine which are truly anomalous

2424
01:20:33,350 --> 01:20:32,080
phenomena i mean if that is something to

2425
01:20:35,350 --> 01:20:33,360
be determined i mean i don't think we

2426
01:20:36,630 --> 01:20:35,360
should enter ufo studies hoping for one

2427
01:20:37,990 --> 01:20:36,640
thing or another i mean it's okay to

2428
01:20:40,550 --> 01:20:38,000
hope but if you're going to really be

2429
01:20:42,310 --> 01:20:40,560
scientific don't have a preconception

2430
01:20:44,390 --> 01:20:42,320
and allow that to lead your study you've

2431
01:20:47,030 --> 01:20:44,400
got to try and be completely cold

2432
01:20:48,950 --> 01:20:47,040
rational skeptical and unbiased even

2433
01:20:50,790 --> 01:20:48,960
again many scientists the majority of

2434
01:20:51,830 --> 01:20:50,800
them these days have a hard time doing

2435
01:20:53,990 --> 01:20:51,840
that and that's why i don't think we've

2436
01:20:55,430 --> 01:20:54,000
made good progress on ufos because

2437
01:20:57,510 --> 01:20:55,440
people have made up their minds either

2438
01:20:58,870 --> 01:20:57,520
for or against the subject before they

2439
01:21:00,790 --> 01:20:58,880
enter the study

2440
01:21:02,149 --> 01:21:00,800
let's really just try and leave our

2441
01:21:04,470 --> 01:21:02,159
biases and opinions at the door and

2442
01:21:06,630 --> 01:21:04,480
let's just do the the the science you

2443
01:21:08,149 --> 01:21:06,640
know nobody really these days well i

2444
01:21:10,070 --> 01:21:08,159
can't say nobody

2445
01:21:12,070 --> 01:21:10,080
but hardly anybody these days is really

2446
01:21:13,510 --> 01:21:12,080
doing that al and henry did so the first

2447
01:21:16,310 --> 01:21:13,520
point i'm trying to make is that look

2448
01:21:18,790 --> 01:21:16,320
this is the this is the model

2449
01:21:21,350 --> 01:21:18,800
and we have a lot more information and a

2450
01:21:23,350 --> 01:21:21,360
lot of better technology at our disposal

2451
01:21:24,950 --> 01:21:23,360
today than we did in the 1970s when

2452
01:21:26,870 --> 01:21:24,960
henry was doing this

2453
01:21:28,790 --> 01:21:26,880
can we do no better

2454
01:21:31,270 --> 01:21:28,800
so first here's the model here's what

2455
01:21:33,830 --> 01:21:31,280
one was able to do with again archaic

2456
01:21:35,110 --> 01:21:33,840
implementation by today's standards

2457
01:21:36,790 --> 01:21:35,120
shouldn't we be able to do better when

2458
01:21:38,310 --> 01:21:36,800
we've got an era in which these

2459
01:21:39,430 --> 01:21:38,320
multi-functional devices called

2460
01:21:41,110 --> 01:21:39,440
smartphones are carried around in

2461
01:21:43,910 --> 01:21:41,120
everybody's pocket we all have a decent

2462
01:21:45,910 --> 01:21:43,920
camera we all have flight tracking radar

2463
01:21:48,630 --> 01:21:45,920
in our pocket or you can if you download

2464
01:21:50,310 --> 01:21:48,640
actual flight radar 24 i have that app i

2465
01:21:51,910 --> 01:21:50,320
recommend other people get it it's easy

2466
01:21:53,910 --> 01:21:51,920
to determine whether what you've seen

2467
01:21:55,430 --> 01:21:53,920
was a iridium flare satellite or if it

2468
01:21:57,590 --> 01:21:55,440
was the international space station you

2469
01:21:59,510 --> 01:21:57,600
can get the sputnik app and you can

2470
01:22:01,110 --> 01:21:59,520
monitor both of those kinds of

2471
01:22:03,110 --> 01:22:01,120
man-made objects that are in earth orbit

2472
01:22:05,430 --> 01:22:03,120
i mean you can you can use your

2473
01:22:08,390 --> 01:22:05,440
smartphone as a veritable transportable

2474
01:22:10,149 --> 01:22:08,400
ufo tracking station

2475
01:22:11,750 --> 01:22:10,159
and yet we with all this technology at

2476
01:22:14,149 --> 01:22:11,760
our disposal have so few people doing

2477
01:22:15,270 --> 01:22:14,159
good science to study ufos so that's the

2478
01:22:17,030 --> 01:22:15,280
crux of the

2479
01:22:18,470 --> 01:22:17,040
article is how do we bring science back

2480
01:22:21,189 --> 01:22:18,480
to this subject if we want to reframe

2481
01:22:22,390 --> 01:22:21,199
the debate on ufos uh maybe we should

2482
01:22:24,870 --> 01:22:22,400
start from scratch but you know what

2483
01:22:26,629 --> 01:22:24,880
we've got a lot more tools to take with

2484
01:22:28,550 --> 01:22:26,639
us this time

2485
01:22:30,310 --> 01:22:28,560
absolutely i think it's uh it's both a

2486
01:22:32,390 --> 01:22:30,320
gift and a curse

2487
01:22:35,510 --> 01:22:32,400
in this technological age for sure but

2488
01:22:38,070 --> 01:22:35,520
yeah i mean this idea of the uap i think

2489
01:22:40,550 --> 01:22:38,080
is uh where we're heading uh you know

2490
01:22:42,550 --> 01:22:40,560
the term sort of hit mainstream when

2491
01:22:44,149 --> 01:22:42,560
hillary clinton brought it up but you

2492
01:22:46,470 --> 01:22:44,159
know there have been many researchers

2493
01:22:49,270 --> 01:22:46,480
using this term for a while now that we

2494
01:22:51,590 --> 01:22:49,280
are dealing with phenomena in the sky or

2495
01:22:52,790 --> 01:22:51,600
possibly um on the ground and in the

2496
01:22:54,229 --> 01:22:52,800
water

2497
01:22:58,149 --> 01:22:54,239
that we can explain that doesn't

2498
01:23:01,110 --> 01:22:58,159
necessarily mean it's in solid object uh

2499
01:23:03,430 --> 01:23:01,120
and also we both know that the term ufo

2500
01:23:06,310 --> 01:23:03,440
comes with so much baggage

2501
01:23:09,430 --> 01:23:06,320
was coined by the us government

2502
01:23:11,669 --> 01:23:09,440
themselves the air force in particular

2503
01:23:15,350 --> 01:23:11,679
so this idea of moving towards a more

2504
01:23:18,229 --> 01:23:15,360
uap centric study i think is uh it's

2505
01:23:21,030 --> 01:23:18,239
exciting and i'm i was very happy to see

2506
01:23:23,750 --> 01:23:21,040
you using that term it's one i'm

2507
01:23:25,830 --> 01:23:23,760
nervous to use in my own writing and

2508
01:23:27,270 --> 01:23:25,840
research but i'm getting there brother

2509
01:23:29,189 --> 01:23:27,280
gathering the courage

2510
01:23:31,030 --> 01:23:29,199
well it's okay and you know i mean maybe

2511
01:23:32,950 --> 01:23:31,040
it's not even about courage i've had

2512
01:23:35,270 --> 01:23:32,960
people uh come to me and say you know

2513
01:23:37,990 --> 01:23:35,280
mike i notice you use uap an awful lot

2514
01:23:40,629 --> 01:23:38,000
these days are you trying to sanitize

2515
01:23:42,070 --> 01:23:40,639
the study of ufos by using a slightly

2516
01:23:44,149 --> 01:23:42,080
different term that has less stigma

2517
01:23:45,910 --> 01:23:44,159
attached to it and i can't say that

2518
01:23:47,750 --> 01:23:45,920
that's not a part of it but what i will

2519
01:23:49,510 --> 01:23:47,760
certainly say is that if you actually

2520
01:23:51,990 --> 01:23:49,520
look at those designations and you do

2521
01:23:53,910 --> 01:23:52,000
consider those stigmas again i say ufo

2522
01:23:55,430 --> 01:23:53,920
and people think spaceship but that's

2523
01:23:56,870 --> 01:23:55,440
not what a ufo is and when edward

2524
01:23:58,950 --> 01:23:56,880
ruppeld who was the first you know head

2525
01:24:00,870 --> 01:23:58,960
of project blue book he

2526
01:24:03,750 --> 01:24:00,880
uh proposed that uh term and coined it

2527
01:24:05,350 --> 01:24:03,760
also back in the day a funny little side

2528
01:24:07,350 --> 01:24:05,360
note by the way he didn't say it should

2529
01:24:09,510 --> 01:24:07,360
be pronounced ufo he said it is to be

2530
01:24:10,790 --> 01:24:09,520
pronounced ufo

2531
01:24:12,629 --> 01:24:10,800
it doesn't seem to really stick although

2532
01:24:14,629 --> 01:24:12,639
some people especially in the uk and

2533
01:24:16,149 --> 01:24:14,639
other parts of europe will

2534
01:24:18,229 --> 01:24:16,159
you'll hear them say that more often

2535
01:24:20,790 --> 01:24:18,239
although there's also the ovni variety

2536
01:24:23,030 --> 01:24:20,800
and a number of other things too but um

2537
01:24:25,990 --> 01:24:23,040
with regard to the idea of the ufo i say

2538
01:24:27,510 --> 01:24:26,000
ufo and i've had skeptics

2539
01:24:29,189 --> 01:24:27,520
i mean i i wish i could say fellow

2540
01:24:31,430 --> 01:24:29,199
skeptics i've got many people who are

2541
01:24:32,950 --> 01:24:31,440
fellow skeptics and i would dare to

2542
01:24:34,629 --> 01:24:32,960
consider myself one of the most

2543
01:24:36,550 --> 01:24:34,639
skeptical people

2544
01:24:39,350 --> 01:24:36,560
in the so-called ufo community who does

2545
01:24:40,310 --> 01:24:39,360
not identify himself as a debunker okay

2546
01:24:42,229 --> 01:24:40,320
but

2547
01:24:43,590 --> 01:24:42,239
um and i'm if anything i'm right there

2548
01:24:45,669 --> 01:24:43,600
in line with alan henry so i'd like to

2549
01:24:47,510 --> 01:24:45,679
think that if if people like philip

2550
01:24:48,790 --> 01:24:47,520
class liked alan hendry i don't care if

2551
01:24:50,149 --> 01:24:48,800
they would have liked me or not but i

2552
01:24:51,830 --> 01:24:50,159
hope that they would have recognized my

2553
01:24:54,950 --> 01:24:51,840
mentality on this as being similar to

2554
01:24:57,750 --> 01:24:54,960
henry's but that said again i say ufo

2555
01:24:59,110 --> 01:24:57,760
and i've had people try to to argue with

2556
01:25:00,550 --> 01:24:59,120
me well you may

2557
01:25:02,470 --> 01:25:00,560
say that it means this or that but we

2558
01:25:04,229 --> 01:25:02,480
all know what somebody means typically

2559
01:25:05,669 --> 01:25:04,239
when they say ufo

2560
01:25:07,510 --> 01:25:05,679
and if i come back and say but that's

2561
01:25:09,189 --> 01:25:07,520
not what it was intended to mean it is

2562
01:25:10,470 --> 01:25:09,199
me intended to mean an unidentified

2563
01:25:11,990 --> 01:25:10,480
flying object that doesn't matter

2564
01:25:13,110 --> 01:25:12,000
because they said we know you meant

2565
01:25:15,270 --> 01:25:13,120
spaceship

2566
01:25:16,629 --> 01:25:15,280
it's it's incredible the varieties of

2567
01:25:18,790 --> 01:25:16,639
different interpretations that people

2568
01:25:21,270 --> 01:25:18,800
can use so how is uap any better well

2569
01:25:22,709 --> 01:25:21,280
unidentified aerial or unexplained

2570
01:25:23,910 --> 01:25:22,719
aerial phenomena i think is a proper

2571
01:25:27,430 --> 01:25:23,920
term but i think it kind of goes back

2572
01:25:30,470 --> 01:25:27,440
and forth unexplained aerial phenomena

2573
01:25:32,229 --> 01:25:30,480
does at least allow for or account for a

2574
01:25:32,950 --> 01:25:32,239
variety of different things that may not

2575
01:25:34,790 --> 01:25:32,960
be

2576
01:25:36,149 --> 01:25:34,800
an object per se i don't know that you

2577
01:25:37,590 --> 01:25:36,159
would call ball lightning or some

2578
01:25:39,750 --> 01:25:37,600
similar weather or you know

2579
01:25:42,470 --> 01:25:39,760
meteorological or atmospheric

2580
01:25:44,390 --> 01:25:42,480
manifestation an object per se

2581
01:25:45,189 --> 01:25:44,400
i just think that uap is a slightly

2582
01:25:47,350 --> 01:25:45,199
better

2583
01:25:48,629 --> 01:25:47,360
catch-all term in reference to the broad

2584
01:25:51,830 --> 01:25:48,639
range of phenomena that we are

2585
01:25:53,590 --> 01:25:51,840
describing when we discuss ufos

2586
01:25:55,110 --> 01:25:53,600
although that term is still very popular

2587
01:25:59,270 --> 01:25:55,120
i just i do think that it is a little

2588
01:26:00,790 --> 01:25:59,280
more stigmatized and a little less uh

2589
01:26:02,950 --> 01:26:00,800
a little less bendable a little less

2590
01:26:04,870 --> 01:26:02,960
flexible in terms of the variety of

2591
01:26:07,110 --> 01:26:04,880
phenomena we're studying

2592
01:26:09,030 --> 01:26:07,120
absolutely you know and maybe one day

2593
01:26:11,110 --> 01:26:09,040
we'll move away from it uh only time

2594
01:26:13,910 --> 01:26:11,120
will tell but like you said we

2595
01:26:15,669 --> 01:26:13,920
within robbie's book and beyond we we

2596
01:26:17,270 --> 01:26:15,679
are trying to reframe that debate and

2597
01:26:18,790 --> 01:26:17,280
we've only

2598
01:26:21,030 --> 01:26:18,800
begun to

2599
01:26:22,790 --> 01:26:21,040
erase the whiteboard and start again but

2600
01:26:24,950 --> 01:26:22,800
i think it's exciting i think we've got

2601
01:26:27,110 --> 01:26:24,960
a long way to go and i think you're one

2602
01:26:29,669 --> 01:26:27,120
of those people who are really bringing

2603
01:26:31,110 --> 01:26:29,679
new questions to the table micah um i

2604
01:26:32,870 --> 01:26:31,120
gotta ask you brother what are you

2605
01:26:34,830 --> 01:26:32,880
working on what should we expect next

2606
01:26:37,590 --> 01:26:34,840
over at the ghrelian

2607
01:26:39,750 --> 01:26:37,600
report there's always so much going on i

2608
01:26:41,430 --> 01:26:39,760
mean i'm working on a secret book

2609
01:26:43,030 --> 01:26:41,440
project right now with a co-author

2610
01:26:44,149 --> 01:26:43,040
friend which i've said very little about

2611
01:26:46,229 --> 01:26:44,159
you're one of the very few people who

2612
01:26:48,229 --> 01:26:46,239
does know much about it and and one of

2613
01:26:51,350 --> 01:26:48,239
the reasons why it's secret it's nothing

2614
01:26:53,510 --> 01:26:51,360
clandestine so to speak it's just

2615
01:26:56,709 --> 01:26:53,520
a project that is well outside the scope

2616
01:26:58,550 --> 01:26:56,719
of of you know ufos and uap now with

2617
01:27:00,550 --> 01:26:58,560
regard to the uap subject to something

2618
01:27:02,149 --> 01:27:00,560
that i do hope to be putting together a

2619
01:27:05,110 --> 01:27:02,159
book about

2620
01:27:06,790 --> 01:27:05,120
sometime i hope within the next year um

2621
01:27:08,310 --> 01:27:06,800
this will be kind of a follow-up to a

2622
01:27:10,070 --> 01:27:08,320
book i wrote a couple of years ago

2623
01:27:12,070 --> 01:27:10,080
called ghost rockets

2624
01:27:14,950 --> 01:27:12,080
ghost rockets of course dealt with

2625
01:27:17,510 --> 01:27:14,960
varieties of of uap that

2626
01:27:19,030 --> 01:27:17,520
very closely resemble missiles rockets

2627
01:27:21,750 --> 01:27:19,040
again it starts with the history of what

2628
01:27:23,270 --> 01:27:21,760
was going on in scandinavia in 1946

2629
01:27:25,030 --> 01:27:23,280
shortly after the war

2630
01:27:27,110 --> 01:27:25,040
but it's um

2631
01:27:28,390 --> 01:27:27,120
i think it goes much deeper than that

2632
01:27:29,910 --> 01:27:28,400
and uh you know of course i was able to

2633
01:27:32,070 --> 01:27:29,920
collect a lot of information leading

2634
01:27:33,910 --> 01:27:32,080
right up to the present where similar

2635
01:27:35,669 --> 01:27:33,920
torpedo-like or missile-like objects i

2636
01:27:37,910 --> 01:27:35,679
mean by all intent i borrow that

2637
01:27:39,510 --> 01:27:37,920
classical ufological term ghost rockets

2638
01:27:41,350 --> 01:27:39,520
for these but i'm referring to a

2639
01:27:43,189 --> 01:27:41,360
continuation of phenomena whether or not

2640
01:27:45,990 --> 01:27:43,199
they are all indicative of the same

2641
01:27:47,030 --> 01:27:46,000
phenomena and the most fascinating case

2642
01:27:49,270 --> 01:27:47,040
of all

2643
01:27:50,950 --> 01:27:49,280
that i discussed in that book is a case

2644
01:27:52,470 --> 01:27:50,960
that i didn't realize this until

2645
01:27:55,110 --> 01:27:52,480
recently ryan but uh there was an

2646
01:27:57,669 --> 01:27:55,120
incident in november i believe of 1995 i

2647
01:27:58,950 --> 01:27:57,679
know it preceded the twa flight 800

2648
01:28:00,470 --> 01:27:58,960
crash

2649
01:28:02,149 --> 01:28:00,480
and there were a

2650
01:28:04,229 --> 01:28:02,159
number of crews aboard aircraft there

2651
01:28:06,229 --> 01:28:04,239
was a lufthansa flight a british air uh

2652
01:28:07,830 --> 01:28:06,239
airlines flight and they were all in

2653
01:28:09,910 --> 01:28:07,840
communication with boston air traffic

2654
01:28:11,430 --> 01:28:09,920
control and saw a object they said they

2655
01:28:12,629 --> 01:28:11,440
had a green light on the front and

2656
01:28:13,750 --> 01:28:12,639
seemed to be

2657
01:28:15,830 --> 01:28:13,760
or a white light on the front then it

2658
01:28:17,270 --> 01:28:15,840
had a green trail it was producing

2659
01:28:18,870 --> 01:28:17,280
everybody said it was just a meteor but

2660
01:28:20,629 --> 01:28:18,880
the pilots and the crew all said this

2661
01:28:22,550 --> 01:28:20,639
thing was flying it stayed in the air

2662
01:28:24,149 --> 01:28:22,560
maintained a horizontal trajectory it

2663
01:28:25,189 --> 01:28:24,159
looked more like an object not like a

2664
01:28:26,950 --> 01:28:25,199
meteor

2665
01:28:28,470 --> 01:28:26,960
uh the radar people said that they were

2666
01:28:29,669 --> 01:28:28,480
i don't actually that may not have been

2667
01:28:30,790 --> 01:28:29,679
the case that they were able to see it

2668
01:28:33,430 --> 01:28:30,800
but they were able to confirm its

2669
01:28:35,510 --> 01:28:33,440
appearance by multiple aircraft

2670
01:28:37,270 --> 01:28:35,520
uh uh peter davenport of the national

2671
01:28:38,870 --> 01:28:37,280
ufo reporting center had obtained a

2672
01:28:41,189 --> 01:28:38,880
transcript of it but i just found out

2673
01:28:42,470 --> 01:28:41,199
that the audio is available on

2674
01:28:44,310 --> 01:28:42,480
youtube so people should be on the

2675
01:28:46,229 --> 01:28:44,320
lookout for that it's just fascinating

2676
01:28:48,390 --> 01:28:46,239
so i'm hoping to do a follow-up to that

2677
01:28:50,149 --> 01:28:48,400
book that'll look at uh mystery

2678
01:28:52,709 --> 01:28:50,159
satellites objects that were in earth

2679
01:28:54,550 --> 01:28:52,719
orbit since the 1950s before we had the

2680
01:28:56,310 --> 01:28:54,560
tech to be able to put them up there and

2681
01:28:58,550 --> 01:28:56,320
the continuation of claims of strange

2682
01:28:59,750 --> 01:28:58,560
things seen in orbit uh in the years

2683
01:29:01,510 --> 01:28:59,760
following and even going back to the

2684
01:29:02,870 --> 01:29:01,520
19th century too so anyway i don't want

2685
01:29:04,149 --> 01:29:02,880
to get long-winded i've already done

2686
01:29:06,629 --> 01:29:04,159
plenty of that so

2687
01:29:07,830 --> 01:29:06,639
not at all that's that's the the basic

2688
01:29:09,510 --> 01:29:07,840
just though

2689
01:29:11,110 --> 01:29:09,520
and then there's finally this other

2690
01:29:13,350 --> 01:29:11,120
enduring mystery i'm working on i can't

2691
01:29:14,550 --> 01:29:13,360
say too much about that at the present

2692
01:29:15,350 --> 01:29:14,560
time but i hope to have another book out

2693
01:29:18,790 --> 01:29:15,360
about

2694
01:29:20,870 --> 01:29:18,800
a strange and somewhat ufological

2695
01:29:23,669 --> 01:29:20,880
something going on down there in chile

2696
01:29:25,990 --> 01:29:23,679
it's a fascinating time yes a very

2697
01:29:27,830 --> 01:29:26,000
active area for sure and

2698
01:29:29,590 --> 01:29:27,840
also one who's willing to come forward

2699
01:29:30,470 --> 01:29:29,600
with the information they have so

2700
01:29:32,390 --> 01:29:30,480
there's

2701
01:29:33,990 --> 01:29:32,400
right there that's gotta help um do you

2702
01:29:35,189 --> 01:29:34,000
have any special events or anything

2703
01:29:37,350 --> 01:29:35,199
coming up

2704
01:29:39,189 --> 01:29:37,360
you know i've got um a couple of uh

2705
01:29:41,270 --> 01:29:39,199
cruises that i'm gonna be doing in

2706
01:29:43,030 --> 01:29:41,280
september and november and those are the

2707
01:29:45,189 --> 01:29:43,040
ancient mysteries cruise where i'll be

2708
01:29:46,550 --> 01:29:45,199
giving an archaeological lecture which

2709
01:29:47,669 --> 01:29:46,560
will have something to do and this is

2710
01:29:48,629 --> 01:29:47,679
letting a little of the cat out of the

2711
01:29:50,229 --> 01:29:48,639
bag but

2712
01:29:52,629 --> 01:29:50,239
that lecture will have to do with this

2713
01:29:54,629 --> 01:29:52,639
primary book project i was talking about

2714
01:29:56,229 --> 01:29:54,639
and then in november the mysteries

2715
01:29:58,550 --> 01:29:56,239
cruise that i'm doing with my good pal

2716
01:29:59,990 --> 01:29:58,560
and fellow podcaster jim harold

2717
01:30:02,229 --> 01:30:00,000
that is going to be

2718
01:30:04,950 --> 01:30:02,239
um really fun but i'm going to be doing

2719
01:30:06,709 --> 01:30:04,960
a discussion about my other interest

2720
01:30:09,110 --> 01:30:06,719
which is uh

2721
01:30:10,790 --> 01:30:09,120
true crime which involves some some of

2722
01:30:12,870 --> 01:30:10,800
its strange disappearances i think that

2723
01:30:14,070 --> 01:30:12,880
really the vintage uh disappearance is

2724
01:30:15,189 --> 01:30:14,080
one that kind of got me into that but

2725
01:30:18,709 --> 01:30:15,199
i've i've looked at a lot of

2726
01:30:20,470 --> 01:30:18,719
non-ufological disappearances too uh and

2727
01:30:22,629 --> 01:30:20,480
that is something of course popularized

2728
01:30:24,070 --> 01:30:22,639
a lot by david politis but um

2729
01:30:25,910 --> 01:30:24,080
i think that on the true crime side of

2730
01:30:27,990 --> 01:30:25,920
thing there are also a lot of unsolved

2731
01:30:29,590 --> 01:30:28,000
crimes like the db coup uh cooper

2732
01:30:31,110 --> 01:30:29,600
skyjacking case

2733
01:30:32,629 --> 01:30:31,120
all these kind of things they just

2734
01:30:34,790 --> 01:30:32,639
fascinate me so that that will be the

2735
01:30:35,750 --> 01:30:34,800
subject of the lecture on the mysteries

2736
01:30:37,270 --> 01:30:35,760
cruise

2737
01:30:39,430 --> 01:30:37,280
and then you and i i believe in august

2738
01:30:42,870 --> 01:30:39,440
are going to be in canada together at a

2739
01:30:46,229 --> 01:30:42,880
event right yes we are yep i uh

2740
01:30:48,709 --> 01:30:46,239
i just signed away on my uh my time off

2741
01:30:51,189 --> 01:30:48,719
requests for work for that

2742
01:30:53,189 --> 01:30:51,199
um very excited yeah please

2743
01:30:54,390 --> 01:30:53,199
tell people about that yeah well of

2744
01:30:56,070 --> 01:30:54,400
course you know our good friend paul

2745
01:30:57,750 --> 01:30:56,080
kimball is one of the uh one of the

2746
01:30:59,430 --> 01:30:57,760
coordinators who's going to be

2747
01:31:00,310 --> 01:30:59,440
putting this on initially they'd wanted

2748
01:31:02,149 --> 01:31:00,320
me to

2749
01:31:03,910 --> 01:31:02,159
in the context of whatever i discussed

2750
01:31:05,350 --> 01:31:03,920
also kind of talk about roswell a bit

2751
01:31:07,430 --> 01:31:05,360
because roswell you know the 70th

2752
01:31:09,189 --> 01:31:07,440
anniversary uh is going on and they're

2753
01:31:11,430 --> 01:31:09,199
going to be doing a festival in roswell

2754
01:31:12,550 --> 01:31:11,440
that i may or may not be attending uh

2755
01:31:14,229 --> 01:31:12,560
we'll have to see there are some other

2756
01:31:16,870 --> 01:31:14,239
things on the books possibly but i have

2757
01:31:19,590 --> 01:31:16,880
to wait to for comp confirmation on that

2758
01:31:21,030 --> 01:31:19,600
but uh i think paul has uh asked that i

2759
01:31:22,870 --> 01:31:21,040
talk about something a little different

2760
01:31:24,390 --> 01:31:22,880
as it turns out and uh which i think

2761
01:31:26,229 --> 01:31:24,400
will be great and it's gonna be a little

2762
01:31:27,990 --> 01:31:26,239
different kind of an approach to things

2763
01:31:29,510 --> 01:31:28,000
uh in the context of all the stuff that

2764
01:31:31,189 --> 01:31:29,520
we hope will all be

2765
01:31:32,709 --> 01:31:31,199
uh studying there together so i'm just

2766
01:31:34,390 --> 01:31:32,719
glad to know that you'll be there and uh

2767
01:31:35,590 --> 01:31:34,400
yeah we'll be headed up to nova scotia

2768
01:31:37,430 --> 01:31:35,600
and doing some

2769
01:31:39,430 --> 01:31:37,440
some uh fun ufological talking later

2770
01:31:41,110 --> 01:31:39,440
this summer yes very much so i haven't

2771
01:31:43,510 --> 01:31:41,120
been that far up north in a while so

2772
01:31:45,189 --> 01:31:43,520
it'll be refreshing and

2773
01:31:45,990 --> 01:31:45,199
in the summer nonetheless which will be

2774
01:31:48,870 --> 01:31:46,000
good

2775
01:31:51,030 --> 01:31:48,880
yeah oh yeah absolutely oh awesome micah

2776
01:31:52,629 --> 01:31:51,040
so um brother where can we find out more

2777
01:31:53,990 --> 01:31:52,639
about what you're doing

2778
01:31:56,390 --> 01:31:54,000
yeah i mean you know my podcasts of

2779
01:31:58,950 --> 01:31:56,400
course are at graylien report that's gr

2780
01:32:00,229 --> 01:31:58,960
and the word alien which is a dual

2781
01:32:01,830 --> 01:32:00,239
reference to

2782
01:32:03,030 --> 01:32:01,840
aliens but also you know the search for

2783
01:32:04,790 --> 01:32:03,040
the holy grail which has always been

2784
01:32:06,629 --> 01:32:04,800
interesting you know that's been a

2785
01:32:08,910 --> 01:32:06,639
fascination of mine since childhood so

2786
01:32:11,189 --> 01:32:08,920
graylien word i created anyway so

2787
01:32:13,189 --> 01:32:11,199
grayleyandreport.com is the podcast but

2788
01:32:14,870 --> 01:32:13,199
if you go to micah hanks.com you can get

2789
01:32:16,629 --> 01:32:14,880
information about all the other stuff

2790
01:32:18,950 --> 01:32:16,639
i'm doing and i do a news and current

2791
01:32:20,070 --> 01:32:18,960
events paula podcast too called uh

2792
01:32:21,830 --> 01:32:20,080
middle theory which is at

2793
01:32:23,510 --> 01:32:21,840
middletheory.com so you can find all the

2794
01:32:26,070 --> 01:32:23,520
aforementioned at those three locations

2795
01:32:28,390 --> 01:32:26,080
and uh yeah definitely check out check

2796
01:32:32,149 --> 01:32:28,400
out what i'm up to awesome and i am a

2797
01:32:33,830 --> 01:32:32,159
member of the grayley x gang so um

2798
01:32:36,070 --> 01:32:33,840
for those who don't know micah also has

2799
01:32:38,070 --> 01:32:36,080
a subscriber-based show that is

2800
01:32:40,149 --> 01:32:38,080
definitely worth the price of admission

2801
01:32:43,030 --> 01:32:40,159
let me tell you i love getting those

2802
01:32:44,070 --> 01:32:43,040
extra treats every week in my itunes box

2803
01:32:46,070 --> 01:32:44,080
so um

2804
01:32:47,430 --> 01:32:46,080
check that out at his website as well

2805
01:32:49,350 --> 01:32:47,440
and uh

2806
01:32:50,950 --> 01:32:49,360
again micah i can't thank you enough

2807
01:32:53,590 --> 01:32:50,960
brother for coming on for one of my

2808
01:32:55,590 --> 01:32:53,600
first interviews of this new endeavor

2809
01:32:56,790 --> 01:32:55,600
and uh again couldn't think of a better

2810
01:32:59,750 --> 01:32:56,800
person so

2811
01:33:01,030 --> 01:32:59,760
truly an honor and uh we'll talk soon

2812
01:33:03,189 --> 01:33:01,040
my pleasure and you're a fine

2813
01:33:06,390 --> 01:33:03,199
interviewer so much continued success as

2814
01:33:08,470 --> 01:33:06,400
you uh go forth and podcast okay

2815
01:33:09,990 --> 01:33:08,480
thanks so much man take care

2816
01:33:11,830 --> 01:33:10,000
you too

2817
01:33:14,149 --> 01:33:11,840
i hope you enjoyed today's interview

2818
01:33:16,390 --> 01:33:14,159
with micah hanks and please do check out

2819
01:33:20,470 --> 01:33:16,400
his weekly radio show the ghrelian

2820
01:33:23,270 --> 01:33:20,480
report on the kgra network or subscribe

2821
01:33:25,189 --> 01:33:23,280
to it on itunes while you're there make

2822
01:33:28,229 --> 01:33:25,199
sure to subscribe to somewhere in the

2823
01:33:30,550 --> 01:33:28,239
skies and please rate and review the

2824
01:33:32,629 --> 01:33:30,560
show it helps more than you know if you

2825
01:33:35,590 --> 01:33:32,639
have any questions comments or guest

2826
01:33:38,229 --> 01:33:35,600
suggestions you can reach me at sprague

2827
01:33:40,470 --> 01:33:38,239
somewhere in the skies.com well that's